Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Varis
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Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Varis »

Recently saw an interview with Dr. James Mallinson and he stated that he's (controversially) of the opinion that Hatha Yoga has origins in Daoist alchemy.
He points out that the same alchemical language, symbolism, and understanding of the body found in the amritasiddhi can be found 200-300 years prior in Daoist texts. He also mentions that Indian Rasayana utilizes substances indigenous to China and Chinese Weidan predates the Indian Rasayana tradition.

Link: (skip to 19:00)

I'm curious to hear what others might think of this. Personally, I lean towards this theory myself. You can even find things such as Utkranti-like practices in the Shangqing scriptures and Daoist mythology (the story of Li Tieguai).
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Sādhaka »

There is a book by Manly P. Hall called The Sages of China, where he says something along the lines that one Buddhist Master and Lao Tzu were one and the same individual under different names. I don't have the book anymore unfortunately, and cannot find any pdf etc.

Not that Manly P. Hall is necessarily a authority on the topic, but it's a interesting claim, and would make sense in light of your thread here, Varis.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Malcolm »

Varis wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:40 pm Indian Rasayana
What he is referring to is use of mercury preparations. Mercury is not found on the Indian subcontinent, and it seems probably, based on Needham's History of Science in China, that the Indians learned mercury preparation from Chinese sources.

However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:42 pm There is a book by Manly P. Hall called The Sages of China, where he says something along the lines that one Buddhist Master and Lao Tzu were one and the same individual under different names.
Unlikely. Buddhism first entered China during Han Dynasty and Lao Tzu lived during the times of Spring and Autumn era which was centuries before Qin Dynasty. And Lao Tzu was a Chinese and had never been to India.

In fact Buddha and Lao Tzu either appeared in the same era or around one centuries apart.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Varis »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:06 pm However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.
Interesting, thank you Malcolm.

Do you know if the practices of drawing the essence of the elements, sun and moon, etc. in TB have antecedents in Indian Rasayana?
My knowledge of Ayurveda is woefully lacking but I know that similar techniques certainly exist within Daoist Neidan.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Varis wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:39 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:06 pm However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.
Interesting, thank you Malcolm.

Do you know if the practices of drawing the essence of the elements, sun and moon, etc. in TB have antecedents in Indian Rasayana?
My knowledge of Ayurveda is woefully lacking but I know that similar techniques certainly exist within Daoist Neidan.
Other than mercury preparation, rasayana in Ayurveda is strictly herbal.

You would have to give some side by side examples. But there is rasayana in the tantras of various kinds.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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I've read one other scholar that argues this, and it makes sense to me

I forgot where I read this though
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by stong gzugs »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:38 pm I've read one other scholar that argues this, and it makes sense to me

I forgot where I read this though
Probably David Gordon White. He also links alchemy to China.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Varis wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:40 pm Recently saw an interview with Dr. James Mallinson and he stated that he's (controversially) of the opinion that Hatha Yoga has origins in Daoist alchemy.
He points out that the same alchemical language, symbolism, and understanding of the body found in the amritasiddhi can be found 200-300 years prior in Daoist texts. He also mentions that Indian Rasayana utilizes substances indigenous to China and Chinese Weidan predates the Indian Rasayana tradition.

I'm curious to hear what others might think of this. Personally, I lean towards this theory myself. You can even find things such as Utkranti-like practices in the Shangqing scriptures and Daoist mythology (the story of Li Tieguai).
This sounds highly implausible. I haven't watched the video - it's an hour long - but he'd need to do a lot better than the symbolism and understanding of the body, as although these look superficially similar, the functions of the channels, winds etc. are so different as to make it clear that you're dealing with two very different theories.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:24 am
Varis wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:40 pm Recently saw an interview with Dr. James Mallinson and he stated that he's (controversially) of the opinion that Hatha Yoga has origins in Daoist alchemy.
He points out that the same alchemical language, symbolism, and understanding of the body found in the amritasiddhi can be found 200-300 years prior in Daoist texts. He also mentions that Indian Rasayana utilizes substances indigenous to China and Chinese Weidan predates the Indian Rasayana tradition.

I'm curious to hear what others might think of this. Personally, I lean towards this theory myself. You can even find things such as Utkranti-like practices in the Shangqing scriptures and Daoist mythology (the story of Li Tieguai).
This sounds highly implausible. I haven't watched the video - it's an hour long - but he'd need to do a lot better than the symbolism and understanding of the body, as although these look superficially similar, the functions of the channels, winds etc. are so different as to make it clear that you're dealing with two very different theories.
I’ve met Jim. He is a really nice guy. But he does not understand Ayurveda, and he has fallen under the spell of a kind of western academic consensus that is actually divorced from reality.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by VajraDude »

stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:38 pm I've read one other scholar that argues this, and it makes sense to me

I forgot where I read this though
Probably David Gordon White. He also links alchemy to China.
It appears the word alchemy or alchemia orignates (and the word “chemistry”) from the the Chinese word for “aurification”.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:05 pm
Varis wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:39 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:06 pm However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.
Interesting, thank you Malcolm.

Do you know if the practices of drawing the essence of the elements, sun and moon, etc. in TB have antecedents in Indian Rasayana?
My knowledge of Ayurveda is woefully lacking but I know that similar techniques certainly exist within Daoist Neidan.
Other than mercury preparation, rasayana in Ayurveda is strictly herbal.

You would have to give some side by side examples. But there is rasayana in the tantras of various kinds.
In general this is correct. Rasayana-s nourish the whole body by strengthening the primordial tissue Rasa, the essence of all food we ingest and can then digest. It can also refer to the ability to digest “experience”.

In a more specific sense rasayana refers to the path or way -ayana of mercury, rasa and includes botanicals. These are used In the rasa-shastra subdivision where this means various metals and compounds esp. oxides or bhasmas, literally “ashes” from the root bhas- “to devour”.
These are all ancient practices from various sadhus/yogi-s across time who living with a constant fire or dhūni and are pre-Vedic, dravidian in origin. Early vajrayana friendships and sources seem to almost exclusively lean towards dravidian sources, e.g. the tantras (before they were even called tantras). Thus, the nathas.
Regarding the taoist origins of hatha yoga, it is an interesting idea, one you run into a lot re: mahasandhi origins, however I feel it is a red herring in Mallinson’s discussion. I received his draft translation of the amrtasiddhi a while back, with permission to share it with Archarya Malcolm Smith, which I did.
The glaring example here, I would hope someone would use, is the theft of early vajrayana texts by the brahmin elites and pundits and the now demonstrable appropriation of vajrayana by them. This one text forces us to look at Vedic hinduism in a new light: if we only found this one rare text in the process of brahmin pundits of modification, how many have we missed? It would have to be in the thousands. This might call into question Prof. Mallinsons objectivity, as a well known hatha-yoga practitioner, writing on vajrayana, a competing darshana.
His most proximate path for his translation is the nathas, not taoists. Nice grab, but he’d be better off digging into natha texts where our first description of Light Body methods can be found. I wholeheartedly agree with Malcolm’s use of Needham’s Histories of Chinese technology, it is still definitive and still active.
Re: caraka-samhita, many samhita-class texts are later re-writes by brahmin elites from pre-vedic tantras. A samhita is basically a samadhi-derived text, which is what the word is describing.
Caraka is an excellent example of this, as the present text of caraka-samhita we have are later modifications of the original agnivesha-tantra by Punarvasu. Indian literature consists of a huge, vast dravidian body of texts, mostly destroyed, some amalgamated into more acceptable Vedic invader norms. The dravidian works included a vast repertoire of all 64 sciences written in a pre-Sankrit language.
I now have been able to verify that an idea I shared with Malcolm is in fact correct: it appears the bulk of vajranana sects have some relation to bhairava texts known as “yamala-s”. The giveaway here is that the yamala-s represent an early tradition of Hindu yab-yum iconography and usage. It has been verified by a pundit in India with knowledge of both “vedic” traditions and vajrayana Sanskrit texts that the kalacakra-tantra is in fact clearly a yamala-derived text.
Sowa Rigpa is an odd bird in all of this. I was just reading the biographies of Orgyanpa Rinchenpal, the alchemist who was trained in Uddiyana/Swat and his methods are different from rasashastra texts and appear to show an indigenous tradition in Tibet. No Indian alchemist that I am aware of used the deceptively named “seabuckthorn” plant - which is a plant of the Himalyas and high plateaus of the himalaya.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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VajraDude wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:27 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:38 pm I've read one other scholar that argues this, and it makes sense to me

I forgot where I read this though
Probably David Gordon White. He also links alchemy to China.
It appears the word alchemy or alchemia orignates (and the word “chemistry”) from the the Chinese word for “aurification”.
"Appears"? How and where does it "appear"? Written on the heavens in words of fire visible to the Elect both by day and by night, or written in the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, 13th edition (1730), Vol III, p, 1037?

More seriously, you have to provide some basis for your claim, especially since it contradicts current knowledge.

:coffee:
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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There is another etymology hypothesized, that is: Al-Khem.

Al or El being in Arabic and Hebrew a general name for Divinity; e.g. Allah, Elohim, or just El, etc. (interestingly El means "the" in Spanish); and Khem as in Khemet or Ancient Egypt. Therefore "the Chemistry of God" or from "the Land of the Gods (i.e. Khemet)".

Just a interesting little side-note.

And also from THE LOST KEYS OF FREEMASONRY or The Secret of Hiram Abiff:

Manly P. Hall 33° wrote:FINISH OF THE TABULA SMARAGDINA

In a rare, unpublished old manuscript dealing with early Masonic and Hermetic mysteries, we find the following information concerning the mysterious Universal Agent referred to as "Chiram" (Hiram):

The sense of this Emerald Tablet can sufficiently convince us that the author was well acquainted with the secret operations of Nature and with the secret work of the philosophers (alchemists and Hermetists). He likewise well knew and believed in the true God.

It has been believed for several ages that Cham, one of the sons of Noah, is the author of this monument of antiquity. A very ancient author, whose name is not known, who lived several centuries before Christ, mentions this tablet, and says that he had seen it in Egypt, at the court; that it was a precious stone, an emerald, whereon these characters were represented in bas-relief, not engraved.

He states that it was in his time esteemed over two thousand years old, and that the matter of this emerald had once been in a fluidic state like melted glass, and had been cast in a mold, and that to this flux the artist had given the hardness of a natural and
genuine emerald, by (alchemical) art.

The Canaanites were called the Phoenicians by the Greeks, who have told us that they had Hermes for one of their kings. There is a definite relation between Chiram and Hermes.

Chiram is a word composed of three words, denoting the Universal Spirit, the essence whereof the whole creation does consist, and the object of Chaldean, Egyptian, and genuine natural philosophy, according to its inner principles or properties. The three Hebrew words Chamah, Rusch, and Majim, mean respectively Fire, Air, and Water, while their initial consonants, Ch, R, M, give us Chiram, that invisible essence which is the father of earth, fire, air and water; because, although immaterial in its own invisible nature as the unmoved and electrical fire, when moved it becomes light and visible; and when collected and agitated, becomes heat and visible and tangible fire; and when associated with humidity it becomes material. The word Chiram has been metamorphosed into Hermes and also into Herman, and the translators of the Bible have made Chiram by changing Chet into He; both of these Hebrew word signs being very similar.

In the word Hermaphrodite, (a word invented by the old philosophers), we find Hermes changed to Herm, signifying Chiram, or the Universal Agent, and Aphrodite, the passive principle of humidity, who is also called Venus, and is said to have been produced and generated by the sea.

We also read that Hiram (Chiram), or the Universal Agent, assisted King Solomon to build the temple. No doubt as Solomon possessed wisdom, he understood what to do with the corporealized Universal Agent. The Talmud of the Jews says that King Solomon built the temple by the assistance of Shamir. Now this word signifies the sun, which is perpetually collecting the omnipresent, surrounding, electrical fire, or Spiritus Mundi, and sending it to us in the planets, in a visible manner called light.
This electrical flame, corporealized and regenerated into the Stone of the Philosophers, enabled King Solomon to produce the immense quantities of gold and silver used to build and decorate his temple.

These paragraphs from an ancient philosopher may assist the Masonic student of today to realize the tremendous and undreamed-of shire of knowledge that lies behind the allegory which he often hears but seldom analyzes. Hiram, the Universal Agent, might be translated Vita the power eternally building and unfolding the bodies of man.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Kai lord wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:27 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:42 pm There is a book by Manly P. Hall called The Sages of China, where he says something along the lines that one Buddhist Master and Lao Tzu were one and the same individual under different names.

Unlikely. Buddhism first entered China during Han Dynasty and Lao Tzu lived during the times of Spring and Autumn era which was centuries before Qin Dynasty. And Lao Tzu was a Chinese and had never been to India.

In fact Buddha and Lao Tzu either appeared in the same era or around one centuries apart.

Yes however I'm sure that you also could see this in not such an limited way; that is because as you're well aware, it is said that Buddhas have emanations. Now there is a lot more I'd like to comment on regarding this; although I may have to revisit this thread when I have more time....
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:11 am
VajraDude wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:27 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:16 pm

Probably David Gordon White. He also links alchemy to China.
It appears the word alchemy or alchemia orignates (and the word “chemistry”) from the the Chinese word for “aurification”.
"Appears"? How and where does it "appear"? Written on the heavens in words of fire visible to the Elect both by day and by night, or written in the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, 13th edition (1730), Vol III, p, 1037?

More seriously, you have to provide some basis for your claim, especially since it contradicts current knowledge.

:coffee:
Kim
It should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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VajraDude wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:00 pmIt should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia.

Hm.... Then you may find my above posts interesting as well....
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Kim O'Hara »

VajraDude wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:00 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:11 am
VajraDude wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:27 pm
It appears the word alchemy or alchemia orignates (and the word “chemistry”) from the the Chinese word for “aurification”.
"Appears"? How and where does it "appear"? Written on the heavens in words of fire visible to the Elect both by day and by night, or written in the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, 13th edition (1730), Vol III, p, 1037?

More seriously, you have to provide some basis for your claim, especially since it contradicts current knowledge.

:coffee:
Kim
It should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia. (emphasis added)
Thank you for providing the sources of your claim.
While I don't deny some Silk Road transmission of alchemy as a subject or practice, I do still have serious doubts about your theory of the origins of the word "alchemy".
For one thing, it's highly speculative. I have bolded some words in your post to highlight gaps and assumptions.
For another, it's at odds with all the standard references on the English language (all that I've bothered to look at, anyway - you might be able to find a white crow).
E.g. https://www.etymonline.com/word/alchemy
mid-14c., from Old French alchimie (14c.), alquemie (13c.), from Medieval Latin alkimia, from Arabic al-kimiya, from Greek khemeioa (found c.300 C.E. in a decree of Diocletian against "the old writings of the Egyptians"), all meaning "alchemy," and of uncertain origin.
Perhaps from an old name for Egypt (Khemia, literally "land of black earth," found in Plutarch), or from Greek khymatos "that which is poured out," from khein "to pour," from PIE root *gheu- "to pour" [Watkins, but Klein, citing W. Muss-Arnolt, calls this folk etymology]. The word seems to have elements of both origins.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alchemy
Middle English alkemye, alkamye, alchymie, borrowed from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French alkemye (Middle French also alquimie, arquemie), borrowed from Medieval Latin alkimia, alchymia "transmutation of base metals into gold, the philosopher's stone," borrowed from Arabic al-kīmiyāʼ, from al "the" + kīmiyāʼ "art of transmuting base metals," borrowed, perhaps via Syriac kīmiyā, from Late Greek chymeîā, chēmeîā, of uncertain origin
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:49 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:27 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:42 pm There is a book by Manly P. Hall called The Sages of China, where he says something along the lines that one Buddhist Master and Lao Tzu were one and the same individual under different names.

Unlikely. Buddhism first entered China during Han Dynasty and Lao Tzu lived during the times of Spring and Autumn era which was centuries before Qin Dynasty. And Lao Tzu was a Chinese and had never been to India.

In fact Buddha and Lao Tzu either appeared in the same era or around one centuries apart.

Yes however I'm sure that you also could see this in not such an limited way; that is because as you're well aware, it is said that Buddhas have emanations. Now there is a lot more I'd like to comment on regarding this; although I may have to revisit this thread when I have more time....

According to Kāśyapamātanga who started the whole idea and subsequently revived by some of the Chan and pure land patriarchs, Lao zi was actually Mahākāśyapa, an Arahant, in disguise so he could not been an emanation. Arahant does not have that ability.

Mahākāśyapa using his mastery of six superknowledges, flew to China and changed his appearance so that he can become Laozi. Of course, this also directly contradicted the traditional Theravadin account of Mahākāśyapa body eventually enshrined in the Kukkuṭapāda Mountain, waiting for Maitreya without having long decades of disappearance.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Sādhaka wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:21 pm
VajraDude wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:00 pmIt should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia.

Hm.... Then you may find my above posts interesting as well....
There was nothing new to me.
As a Freemasonic historian, I own most of this stuff and am selling a lots of it.
In general I look at Manley Hall as a dubious source.
yathā pinde tathā brahmānde: As the Microcosm, So the Macrocosm, all that is needed, is in your environment.
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