Two Truths Doctrine

If you're new to the forum or new to Buddhism, this is the best place for your questions. Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
Ardha
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:48 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Ardha »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:33 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:10 pm
I just don't know what to do, some days I wonder if this will be my life...torment.

Yep, it sounds like you are doomed forever. That’s because you are clinging your own insistence thst what is the not true is true.

The mere fact that you just keep bringing this up over and over again with no purpose (you reject any alternative view to the one you have, even though the view you have is failing you) really suggests to me that you are just looking for attention.

Perhaps it would be better to focus on the doomed state of existence that you find yourself in.
I don’t mean to be so blunt, but it seems you already have your mind made up. You have everything decided already. So in that case, you have no choice but to live with that decision that you have made for yourself.
What I mean is, it seems as though you are just looking for validation. I find that people generally hear what they want to hear. That can even include things they think that they don’t want to hear.
It sounds like there’s a part of you that actually wants to cling to this gloom-and-doom outlook. Self-grasping often works that way.
By presenting the same problem over and over again, and having it refuted, and clinging to “but I still think she’s right” you are practicing a process of self/validation, even though it has a negative structure.
You aren’t actually doomed to that. You can change things. But you’d really need to work on it.
I don't want her to be right, because I have other things I want to get on with but my enthusiasm gets blunted by what she says. It's like always there even if I try to forget. But when I try to move on and forget it feels like I've giving up because I can't argue against her, or I can't contact here and by calling her wrong it would be just for my comfort and that I'm just misinterpreting her. Despite all my effort there always seems to be a reason to stay and trying to leave or move on or forget it running away, to live a lie because you can't handle the truth.
so far you haven’t presented any evidence whatsoever.
When it comes to this:
You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss-->sadness
gain-->joy

The part about loss being false, is cold -- that is why the wise thing to do is to help people grieve rather than tell them about it
there are more appropriate times and places to discuss the ultimate nature of reality,
and telling someone "death doesn't matter" while they are vulnerable and grieving over death
will often hurt them in an emotional sense more than it will help guide them to an ultimate understanding
Like if you feel happy over family, that's what society says you ought to do. Or if you find something cool or amazing that's because it was made to make you feel like that, etc etc. Everything you thought was how you felt or that you liked what you liked never came from you but was purely manufactured. So I don't really like certain characters, movies, games, etc etc, and my values etc. All that stuff is just brainwashing essentially. You feel the way you feel because society says you ought to feel that way about stuff. Everywhere I look it just seems to confirm it.

Your counterpoint about cats and dogs doesn't hold because we genetically selected those animals over years so they were made to be friendly and to love us.

It's not that I want her to be right but I can't find out how she is wrong. And the counterclaims I hear are more about misunderstanding the essence of her point or not taking it far enough.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 7449
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:11 am Despite all my effort there always seems to be a reason to stay
Yeah, that what I said. If doesn’t have to be a positive thing. It’s like trying to not look at a train wreck. It’s negatively self-gratifying.
Who creates that reason?
Like if you feel happy over family, that's what society says you ought to do. Or if you find something cool or amazing that's because it was made to make you feel like that, etc etc.
why should you care about what other people think? The Buddha says we should take responsibility for our own emotions.

Either you need to decide that there is something you can do about this situation, and do it, or decide that there is nothing you can do about this situation, and resign yourself to forever suffer with it. Ultimately those are your only two options. Simply regurgitating it again and again won’t resolve it.
Which is it going to be?
It's not that I want her to be right but I can't find out how she is wrong. And the counterclaims I hear are more about misunderstanding the essence of her point or not taking it far enough.
so, if you are misunderstanding what she says, doesn’t that tell you something?
Then maybe you should go back and read through the replies in this thread, again.

Where was this person who told you this stuff? Is there a written transcript we can read? Was she in a video, or a live talk, or what? What are her qualifications? Who is she?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
master of puppets
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:33 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:10 pm
I just don't know what to do, some days I wonder if this will be my life...torment.

Yep, it sounds like you are doomed forever. That’s because you are clinging your own insistence thst what is the not true is true.

The mere fact that you just keep bringing this up over and over again with no purpose (you reject any alternative view to the one you have, even though the view you have is failing you) really suggests to me that you are just looking for attention.

Perhaps it would be better to focus on the doomed state of existence that you find yourself in.
I don’t mean to be so blunt, but it seems you already have your mind made up. You have everything decided already. So in that case, you have no choice but to live with that decision that you have made for yourself.
What I mean is, it seems as though you are just looking for validation. I find that people generally hear what they want to hear. That can even include things they think that they don’t want to hear.
It sounds like there’s a part of you that actually wants to cling to this gloom-and-doom outlook. Self-grasping often works that way.
By presenting the same problem over and over again, and having it refuted, and clinging to “but I still think she’s right” you are practicing a process of self/validation, even though it has a negative structure.
You aren’t actually doomed to that. You can change things. But you’d really need to work on it.
hello Padma,
May be you are right on the subject of "no-self". I don't know HOW can ı do it..like what if that no-self will be my new self? will ı embrace it?
Last edited by master of puppets on Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 7449
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

master of puppets wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:16 pm what if that no-self will be my new self? will ı embrace it?
that’s just theoretical clutter.
Just meditate, and see what happens.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Ardha
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:48 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Ardha »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:05 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:11 am Despite all my effort there always seems to be a reason to stay
Yeah, that what I said. If doesn’t have to be a positive thing. It’s like trying to not look at a train wreck. It’s negatively self-gratifying.
Who creates that reason?
Like if you feel happy over family, that's what society says you ought to do. Or if you find something cool or amazing that's because it was made to make you feel like that, etc etc.
why should you care about what other people think? The Buddha says we should take responsibility for our own emotions.

Either you need to decide that there is something you can do about this situation, and do it, or decide that there is nothing you can do about this situation, and resign yourself to forever suffer with it. Ultimately those are your only two options. Simply regurgitating it again and again won’t resolve it.
Which is it going to be?
It's not that I want her to be right but I can't find out how she is wrong. And the counterclaims I hear are more about misunderstanding the essence of her point or not taking it far enough.
so, if you are misunderstanding what she says, doesn’t that tell you something?
Then maybe you should go back and read through the replies in this thread, again.

Where was this person who told you this stuff? Is there a written transcript we can read? Was she in a video, or a live talk, or what? What are her qualifications? Who is she?
I'm not creating that reason, if anything I'm trying to move on but I can't help but find evidence she's right. You said she's wrong but I pointed out the holes in your response with dogs and cats.
why should you care about what other people think? The Buddha says we should take responsibility for our own emotions.

Either you need to decide that there is something you can do about this situation, and do it, or decide that there is nothing you can do about this situation, and resign yourself to forever suffer with it. Ultimately those are your only two options. Simply regurgitating it again and again won’t resolve it.
Which is it going to be?
This is missing the point about what I was saying and what I meant when I was talking about what she said on society.
Where was this person who told you this stuff? Is there a written transcript we can read? Was she in a video, or a live talk, or what? What are her qualifications? Who is she?
It was on an internet forum and everything I have quoted on here from here is pretty much everything that had to do with it. She said she studied this in college and talked to monks and scholars.

I read through the replies but they don't really have anything to do with what she said, that's what I mentioned before.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 7449
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:59 am You said she's wrong but I pointed out the holes in your response with dogs and cats.
No, you didn’t.
What you originally said, to which I answered with the example of dogs and cats, was this:
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
Which sounds like the the feelings one experienced may be dictated by the feelings society expects a person to have (which is basically avoiding taking responsibility for one’s own thoughts).
So, then I have the example of cats and dogs:
If that were really true, then dogs and cats and other animals, who are not bound by our societal expectations, would not feel either happy or sad. They wouldn’t feel pain. But since they do, then obviously what she said was false
I pointed out that societal expectations aren’t the source of happiness and sadness, because if they were, then that would be observable in animals. Obviously, scolding a dog produces an expression of guilt. But this isn’t a matter of expectation. Yet, Animals feel sadness and joy, fear, etc.

To which you replied:
The part about society and feeling I did think about how dogs and cats and animals in nature feel happy and sad over stuff and it's not based on our society. But the counter point is that it could also be based on their own social structures.
which could mean anything, if it even means anything at all. Maybe canines accepting who is the top dog in the pack? A lot of animals don’t function with social structures.

But that has nothing to do with you and your feelings. That’s just making up excuses. My point is that you own your feelings.
Society only dictates them to you if you think it does; if you give others that control.

But then you added:
But then I thought about where that social structure would get it from. Society just doesn't innately have this stuff, which means that it comes from us. So to be happy over gain and sad over loss is to be human. But then my brain just tells me I'm avoiding the painful truth and grasping what makes me feel better.
which is one of the few things you’ve said that’s made any sense, and which suggests you might be taking responsibility for your own thoughts.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 7449
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:59 am I can't help but find evidence she's right.
But there is no evidence that she’s right,
because she’s not.
You’re just making that up in your own mind.
And, because you think she’s right when she’s not, you keep coming back to same confusion and frustration.

Feeling happiness without depending on that emotion for one’s own peace of mind, and feeling sadness without losing one’s peace of mind doesn’t amount to being a zombie. It amounts to having true peace of mind, taking responsibility for one’s own thoughts, and having some emotional maturity.

True peace of mind is like a healthy, firmly rooted tree. It doesn’t die in the winter when its leaves are gone and it’s covered with snow. It doesn’t mind the rain and it doesn’t mind if there’s no rain. When the wind blows, it bends with it but doesn’t fall over. When the Sun is scorching the earth, it responds by offering shade. It experiences everything but stays firmly rooted.

What the lady in that broadcast basically said was that if the tree doesn’t get uprooted by the weather, it’s a zombie tree. A dead tree.
That simply is not true. It’s not a dead tree,
it’s a healthy tree.

As long as you keep believing what is not true,
you will keep returning to this confusion and frustration.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
master of puppets
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:35 pm
master of puppets wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:16 pm what if that no-self will be my new self? will ı embrace it?
that’s just theoretical clutter.
Just meditate, and see what happens.
It is even hard to hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night,
in this noisy world!!
Post Reply

Return to “Discovering Mahayana Buddhism”