:Namaste:
No Master here, but if you really want to understand the Hashang fallacy, maybe there was no fallacy because the answer depends on perspective - see below. From the enlightened side, perhaps it is instant or more accurately non referential - can't be caught in words. Perhaps, from the unenlightened side, it is gradual because the unenlightened side defines all experiences in words - words are gradual.
https://earlytibet.com/about/hashang-mahayana/
and
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 81#p612381
Which sums up as; words about the question as to: Is enlightenment sudden or gradual?
Again, perhaps the correct answer cannot be found by argument, linear logic, rhetorical superiority or reference to historical debates.
The human condition can't be caught in words.
This is something that can be pointed to - from both sides. Words can point to the enlightened side and the enlightened side can point to itself using words. Both pointings are not enlightenment - but point to enlightenment.
Emaho!
Everything is fine - just as it is, and everyone can be content in their own view.
Now we can relax and watch a good movie? Well - not yet - but see below! - Good movies are coming soon.
There are artistic pointings, which point to the unsatisfactory nature of the human condition, and the value of the Buddha Dharma. Here are some funny approaches to the issues. The dark side of the human condition hits us over the head elsewhere.
"The universe is so much bigger than you realize." Quote from "Everything Everywhere All at Once", which puts the answer to all questions on the cosmic everything bagel.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6710474/
Also: The Firesign Theaters, "You can't get there from here."
https://ask.metafilter.com/262849/You-J ... -From-Here
Also referenced by Mel Brooks in the title of History of the World - Part 1
https://www.moviequotes.com/search-quot ... rld+part+1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/
or the 2000-year-old man.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388667/
Then there is "The Meaning of Life."
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959
Also
King of Hearts.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060908/
and many others. These are some of my favorites.
For a while I was a driver for Venerable Deshung Rinpoche. He lost the use of his legs by sitting up and saying mani mantras - all the time.
He did not have to do this, but out of compassion, he did. So we each do our best to engage with the world and lessen suffering as we are able.
I've done several animal / fish releases and find these useful for practice as a Dzogchen practitioner. Pain and suffering are real to the unenlightened.
The Dharma King ChNN taught the 100+ secondary practices to be a short path to enlightenment. These are all contained in the Digital Archive at Merigar. Only a few of these are being actively taught by lineage holders.
So maybe in the scope of all of the above (and that is a lot of scope), maybe whether rtog pa means this or that, really is not so important.
Can't get there from here
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9438
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Re: Can't get there from here
An apple takes all summer to ripen, but falls from the tree in one second.
If, at any moment, anything is the sum accumulation of its causes, how can gradual and sudden be regarded as opposites? And if not as opposites, then at least separable into two different things?
If, at any moment, anything is the sum accumulation of its causes, how can gradual and sudden be regarded as opposites? And if not as opposites, then at least separable into two different things?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Can't get there from here
Exactly Padma.... Ashes aren’t burned wood, they are ashes. Wood is not unburned ash, it is wood.
The beginningless begins forever.
Traceless
Nothing set up against anything else.
An uncut block
The beginningless begins forever.
Traceless
Nothing set up against anything else.
An uncut block
Re: Can't get there from here
Even the traceless can get lost in words:
"--- that with each translation there rests a different philosophy."
https://www.bu.edu/religion/files/pdf/T ... ations.pdf
And sometimes it is found.
"--- and pound time on our plates and bowls until they break."
Merry Xmas.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can't get there from here
Maybe it is important to some people, and you should let them pursue what they choose, while keeping your personal judgements out of it. As you say, you are no ones master and probably don’t have the requisite judgement to condition others as to what is important in their practice.oldbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:27 pm :Namaste:
No Master here, but if you really want to understand the Hashang fallacy, maybe there was no fallacy because the answer depends on perspective - see below. From the enlightened side, perhaps it is instant or more accurately non referential - can't be caught in words. Perhaps, from the unenlightened side, it is gradual because the unenlightened side defines all experiences
So maybe in the scope of all of the above (and that is a lot of scope), maybe whether rtog pa means this or that, really is not so important.
Anyway, temporality itself is skillful means in Dzogchen, I think anyone with a bit of study and practice can probably grok that. The three times collapse, in the non arising of events time is just a fiction, making the categories or sudden gradual just relative markers of a kind.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama