Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:01 amQuite naturally so, but it is not a method.
So it is unlike what is taught in Chan, i.e. the sudden teaching (dunjiao 頓教).

'In a single leap, you directly enter the stage of Tathāgata.
Just grasp the roots, don’t worry about the branches;
It is like a pure beryl gem containing the moon.
Having understood this wish-fulfilling gem,
Using it for the benefit of yourself and others, it will never be exhausted.'

(Yongjia’s Song of Actualizing the Way, BDK ed, p 14)

'To simply right now suddenly comprehend that one’s own mind is fundamentally Buddha, without there being a single dharma one can attain and without there being a single practice one can cultivate—this is the insurpassable enlightenment, this is the Buddha of suchness.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 20)
Four Courses of Meditation (pratipad); one of the four courses is quick and easy.
It is discussed in the Chapter on Practice in the Anguttara Nikaya (4.161-170). There it becomes clear that 'easy' stands for the four absorptions, and 'quick' for the five powers being strong. It is still a gradual path.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anders
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Anders »

Astus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:41 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:01 amQuite naturally so, but it is not a method.
So it is unlike what is taught in Chan, i.e. the sudden teaching (dunjiao 頓教).
Quite. I feel like there are a lot of people who don't actually understand what the debate is about and conflate the discussion with speed of realisation.

I feel like R.A. Stein's paper Sudden Illumination or Simultaneous Comprehension: Remarks on Chinese and Tibetan Terminology (from the book "Sudden and Gradual - Approaches to Enlightenment in Chinese Thought") should be compulsory reading for this kind of discussion.

The article can also be read in its interity on google books.

Of course, subitist paths are generally held to be faster than gradual ones, but that sudden element of it does not so much denote speed as it denotes the direct nature of that path as being a simultaneous, immediate 'all-at-once' entrance.

Then you have someone like Dogen who never really addressed the dichotomy. Ostensibly because in his view, subitism was the only orthodox interpretation of Mahayana Buddhism.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:41 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:01 amQuite naturally so, but it is not a method.
So it is unlike what is taught in Chan, i.e. the sudden teaching (dunjiao 頓教).
I am not sure so about it. All cases that seem like a "sudden awakening", have been preceded by life, by the informal training that is called "life", for many years and for many lifetimes. In the cases of Bahiya and Shariputra and Maudgalyayana they had all been looking for a teacher of enlightenment for many years in their present lives (at the time of Shakyamuni). Thus they had been consciously approaching the "instantaneous" awakening, they had approached it for many years, many decades, and many lifetimes. This certainly constitutes some form of training.

The actual awakening very often is sudden or instantaneous, but you cannot discount everything that had preceded it. You cannot discount the consciously or unconsciously directed deeds in the previous life and lives, that lead towards it.

In the Lotus Sutra chapter 18., Merits of Joyful Acceptance there is a story of a person who first practices generosity for a very long time, and after that gives these beings the gift of Dharma: "and by his revealing, teaching, benefiting, and rejoicing, they all in a moment become srota-apanas, sakridagamins, anagamins and arhats, free from all imperfections, having all acquired mastery of profound meditation and completed the eight emancipations."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:58 amAll cases that seem like a "sudden awakening", have been preceded by life, by the informal training that is called "life", for many years and for many lifetimes.
The sudden teaching of Chan is not about the idea that people may suddenly awaken, since that is not really a teaching to use, nor is it a novel concept unique to Chan.

The sudden awakening in Chan is about directly cutting off deluded concepts and achieving simultaneously and immediately the state of a buddha.

You may review what sudden enlightenment in Chan may stand for in this previous post.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:02 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:58 amAll cases that seem like a "sudden awakening", have been preceded by life, by the informal training that is called "life", for many years and for many lifetimes.
The sudden teaching of Chan is not about the idea that people may suddenly awaken, since that is not really a teaching to use, nor is it a novel concept unique to Chan.

The sudden awakening in Chan is about directly cutting off deluded concepts and achieving simultaneously and immediately the state of a buddha.

You may review what sudden enlightenment in Chan may stand for in this previous post.
That is just boring analysis, mainly intellectual and not very useful for anyone's life or practice. That is true because Dharma is mainly about authority, and then it is even more about authority, and it is about a position in a hierarchy, and it is even more about a position in several hierarchies: academic, clerical, political, genetic and hereditary hierarchies.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Anders
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Anders »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:57 am
Astus wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:02 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:58 amAll cases that seem like a "sudden awakening", have been preceded by life, by the informal training that is called "life", for many years and for many lifetimes.
The sudden teaching of Chan is not about the idea that people may suddenly awaken, since that is not really a teaching to use, nor is it a novel concept unique to Chan.

The sudden awakening in Chan is about directly cutting off deluded concepts and achieving simultaneously and immediately the state of a buddha.

You may review what sudden enlightenment in Chan may stand for in this previous post.
That is just boring analysis, mainly intellectual and not very useful for anyone's life or practice. That is true because Dharma is mainly about authority, and then it is even more about authority, and it is about a position in a hierarchy, and it is even more about a position in several hierarchies: academic, clerical, political, genetic and hereditary hierarchies.
That seems rather uncharitable, besides not really having anything to do with what Astus wrote. He gave you good info on what sudden enlightenment means in Chan/Zen.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by akuppa »

Anders wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:13 am

That's not really what sudden awakening is about.

It is, although a bit klunkily, more meaningfully translated as the 'simultaneous/immediate (without mediation)/all at once' teaching.

The core of it is basically a rejection of gradualism. It is perhaps best expressed in huinengs "one thought of bodhi makes you the equal of a Buddha, whilst one thought of delusion makes you a sentient being". This is not acceptable in a gradualist scheme whereby the result follows at the end of cultivation, rather than simultaneous with/as cultivation.

It is really not so much about speed or how awakening manifests but about a type of practice in which there are no real stages and the implications of it.

Soto is sometimes held as 'gradual' but this is based on a similar misconception. It could in fact be said to be more subitist than Rinzai since Dogen argued that the wholehearted effort of a beginner is the wholehearted effort of a Buddha, whilst hakuin argued that true (sudden) practise only comes on board post kensho.
If its not about speed, do you mean it could take place over time? Could it be lost and then gained again? In my reading some medieval Japanese thought so.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

akuppa wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:04 pmIf its not about speed, do you mean it could take place over time? Could it be lost and then gained again? In my reading some medieval Japanese thought so.
'A single moment’s stupidity and prajñā is eradicated, a single moment’s wisdom and prajñā is generated. ... With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, BDK ed, ch 2, p 30)

'Within continuing moments of thought one should not think of the previous [mental] realm. If one thinks of the previous thought, the present
thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’ Thus it is that nonabiding is taken as the fundamental.'

(ch 4, p 43)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by akuppa »

Astus wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:45 pm
'A single moment’s stupidity and prajñā is eradicated, a single moment’s wisdom and prajñā is generated. ... With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, BDK ed, ch 2, p 30)

'Within continuing moments of thought one should not think of the previous [mental] realm. If one thinks of the previous thought, the present
thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’ Thus it is that nonabiding is taken as the fundamental.'

(ch 4, p 43)
So sudden awakening doesn't rule out a certain kind of development over time. It's just that it's not really development from the point of view of the awakening itself.

I guess its more like uncovering a jewel that was always bright to begin with.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

akuppa wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 pmSo sudden awakening doesn't rule out a certain kind of development over time.
Where do you see any development?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by akuppa »

Astus wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:22 pm
akuppa wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 pmSo sudden awakening doesn't rule out a certain kind of development over time.
Where do you see any development?
So I read the quotes as saying that one could have bodhi one moment and delusion the next, delusion one moment and bodhi the next. So no development because its a binary thing rather than a gradual path of stages like sotapanna to arahant.
But if you consider the person from our point of view, there is a development as awakening is actualized over time, with more and more moments of bodhi and fewer of delusion.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

akuppa wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:54 pmBut if you consider the person from our point of view, there is a development as awakening is actualized over time, with more and more moments of bodhi and fewer of delusion.
That would be the perspective of an imagined being persisting over time. Such a point of view then would raise some issues, like: What factors change with more frequent moments of awakening? If awakening can be gained and lost, what other conditions have to be met to reach final awakening?
Or there really aren't any new issues, since it would be mostly like the standard gradual path. And that is the understanding of those who subscribe to the view of 'sudden awakening, gradual cultivation'.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anders
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Anders »

I remember a discussion about this on a soto board a while back where rev Nonin concluded that while technically, the path is not different in the start and the end, qualitatively speaking, there is a difference between ten years of zazen and 10 days of it.

Dogen, likewise says in one place:

"In the buddha-dharma, practice and enlightenment are one and the same. Because it is the practice of enlightenment, a beginner's wholehearted practice of the Way is exactly the totality of original enlightenment."

And then elsewhere

"Were we to compare the state of supreme, fully perfected enlightenment with the state of giving rise to the enlightened Mind for the first
time, it is like comparing the universal, all-consuming conflagration of the final age with the light of a firefly."

So, in principle and view, no difference. Practically, and qualitatively, can be a world of difference.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by akuppa »

Astus wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:27 pm
That would be the perspective of an imagined being persisting over time. Such a point of view then would raise some issues, like: What factors change with more frequent moments of awakening? If awakening can be gained and lost, what other conditions have to be met to reach final awakening?
Or there really aren't any new issues, since it would be mostly like the standard gradual path. And that is the understanding of those who subscribe to the view of 'sudden awakening, gradual cultivation'.
If it can be lost, its not full awakening and if it takes place over time, it's gradual and not sudden. So I'm rather confused if this is what is taught as sudden awakening in Chan.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:39 pmIf it can be lost, its not full awakening and if it takes place over time, it's gradual and not sudden. So I'm rather confused if this is what is taught as sudden awakening in Chan.
There are different versions of sudden awakening, as noted previously.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
SilverFantasy
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:38 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

For those familiar with Dzogchen or Nyingma, is there any possibility that the Guhyagarbha tantra points to a sudden enlighten Indian school? Here's my thinking:

1) I was reading a full published analysis of the potential early origins of Dzogchen by Sam van Schaik, and he commented on the fact that the earliest references to Atiyoga/Dzogchen in Dunhuang seemed to refer to it as a state of meditation, rather then a distinct vehicle; based on this and other facts, he postulates that the earliest form of Dzogchen was based around commentaries that lamas would write about the aspect of non conceptual meditation found within the Guhyagarbha - only, over time, many of the commentaries started to completely leave out references to the Guhyagarbha, and were only based on this nonconceptual sudden-enlightenment primordial-purity/spontaneous-presence style yoga

2) While there was a period of time that the Guhyagarbha was being criticized as a Tibetan invention by the Sarma schools, we know that Śākyaśrībhadra, a Kashmiri guru who taught Sakya Paṇḍita (and is associated with a school separate from the Nyingmas), verified a Sanskrit manuscript of the tantra which had been found at Samyé (this is mentioned in a 12th or 13th century Sakya biography of Śākyaśrībhadra). https://earlytibet.com/2007/08/27/in-se ... ha-tantra/

3)Therefore, it sounds like the Guhyagarbha tantra did in fact come from India (despite us not finding any Indian Sanskrit versions) - and based on what I've read, the concept of Dzogchen/non conceptual meditation seems to be directly related to this practice, and therefore may point to a sudden enlightenment school in India. (Granted I haven't had any tantric initiations, and can't speak about this directly).
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8630
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pmWe have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
On that text: The Sudden and Gradual Sūtric (and Tantric?) Approaches in the Rim gyis 'jug pa and Cig car 'jug pa by Joel Gruber.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Kai lord
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Kai lord »

Always find it weird that Sri Singha would journey all the way to Wu Tai Shan in China to learn about the outer and inner tantras during the 7/8th century before meeting up with Mañjuśrīmitra in Bodhi Gaya. Glad that growing number of people are thinking in that direction as well.
SilverFantasy wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:33 am 1) I was reading a full published analysis of the potential early origins of Dzogchen by Sam van Schaik, and he commented on the fact that the earliest references to Atiyoga/Dzogchen in Dunhuang seemed to refer to it as a state of meditation, rather then a distinct vehicle; based on this and other facts, he postulates that the earliest form of Dzogchen was based around commentaries that lamas would write about the aspect of non conceptual meditation found within the Guhyagarbha - only, over time, many of the commentaries started to completely leave out references to the Guhyagarbha, and were only based on this nonconceptual sudden-enlightenment primordial-purity/spontaneous-presence style yoga
He probably has read Lalitavajra (Vilāsavajra) commentary on Guhyagarbha Tantra as well.
Malcolm
Posts: 41649
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:21 pm Always find it weird that Sri Singha
[/quote]

That account is quite late and not reflected in the sems sde and klong sde histories.
SilverFantasy wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:33 am For those familiar with Dzogchen or Nyingma, is there any possibility that the Guhyagarbha tantra points to a sudden enlighten Indian school? Here's my thinking:
There is a mention of Shri Singha by Manjushrikirti, an 11th century scholar, who identifies the former as belonging to a group who emphasized the completion stage and dispensed with the creation stage as unnecessary. So,I find all the reams of pages written about the supposed origins of Dzogchen to be a bit dated and unnecessary in light of this information. The thirteenth chapter of the Guhyagarbha is quite clear about the meaning of Dzogchen.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Post Reply

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”