Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Archie2009
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Archie2009 »

Jules, I hope your lack of concepts won't prevent you from publishing your profound Dharma Wisdom in bookform at a major Buddhist publisher. Definite pre-order! :thumbsup:
muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:59 pm
muni wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:39 pm
muni wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:55 am It is said since what we accept to be, because we learned so we are, that is itself a fabrication, therefore there is need of help by same fabricated nature to come out of that. Even these themselves are not liberating and can as well become new objects to cling to.

The written Dharma is pointing, it is not the written Dharma itself or the pointing itself what need to be known. Fellows here know that. But I as a stupid old woman, would be silent. Since I would knock with the wooden guideposts "on the way of liberation", to get it right.

Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
_/\_
My bad!
Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
Homage to all the Masters that point. :anjali:

Thank you Rinpoche _/\_
May all be free. "The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche. _/\_
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Matt J
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Matt J »

The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context. Thoughts tend to subside in the higher jhanas, but that is not the practice. I say this because I was caught in this snare for a period of time.

For example, other Patrul Rinpoche quotes:
Some ‘great meditators’ don’t allow thoughts to arise, but try to push them aside and take hold of their minds. This is not the genuine view; it is suppressing mental states. Instead, allow your mind to settle in stillness whenever it is still and in movement whenever it stirs.
No matter what kind of thoughts arise — be they good or bad, positive or negative, happy or sad — don’t indulge them or reject them, but settle, without altering, in the very mind that thinks.
Some ‘great meditators’ are delighted whenever the mind is at ease, but feel frustration whenever agitated thoughts arise. This is not the genuine view; the fault lies in not knowing how to sustain the essence of whatever arises. When agitated thoughts arise, settle out of a state of relaxation directly in the one who feels the agitation.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... meditation

Even these quotes, standing without further context and explanation, can be misleading.
muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:20 pm Thank you Rinpoche _/\_
May all be free. "The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche. _/\_
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:10 pm The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context.
Yup. It's the classic Hashang strawman view.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

:namaste:
"The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche.
So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:22 pm :namaste:
"The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche.
So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.
Books don't teach.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:03 pm
muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:22 pm :namaste:
"The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche.
So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.
Books don't teach.
Right. Therefore there are living masters.
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:03 pm
muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:22 pm :namaste:

So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.
Books don't teach.
Right. Therefore there are living masters.
Not many, and those who are, well, not easy to meet.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
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heart
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by heart »

Matt J wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:10 pm The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context. Thoughts tend to subside in the higher jhanas, but that is not the practice. I say this because I was caught in this snare for a period of time.
Me too. It is a bad snare.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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conebeckham
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by conebeckham »

heart wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:18 pm
Matt J wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:10 pm The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context. Thoughts tend to subside in the higher jhanas, but that is not the practice. I say this because I was caught in this snare for a period of time.
Me too. It is a bad snare.

/magnus
Yep, also been there. In the context of Mahamudra, it also happens---until one really delves into examination of "Moving Mind."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Archie2009 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:05 am Jules, I hope your lack of concepts won't prevent you from publishing your profound Dharma Wisdom in bookform at a major Buddhist publisher. Definite pre-order! :thumbsup:
Books don't teach.

For those who look to books and the internet for clarification, I would suggest that they aspire to meet a living master;
face to face, in person. And if that person's karmic causation and circumstantial conditions permit them to be able to meet such a master and receive the pointing out instructions, then, as mentioned previously:
Without the open warmth and moisture of bodhicitta, there is no genuine Dharma.

Devotion and compassion are vital for a person who wishes to practice Dzogchen.

A famous saying goes: "A closed up person gives rise to no good qualities, just as a scorched seed will never sprout."

Devotion and compassion are indispensable to recognizing the nature of mind when one receives the pointing out instructions.
As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol explained in The Heart of the Matter:

"Saraha, the great brahmin, said:

Those who don't drink their fill
From the cool and soothing nectar of their
master's oral instructions,
Will only be tortured by thirst
On the desert plains of countless treatises.

For this reason, it is essential
Not to pursue nor cling to views proven only by
words,
But to personally begin training in the view and
meditation
Of the lineage of profound meaning.

You may wonder if the prelude to meditation,
the various ways of seeking the mind,
Isn't a conceptualized form of analysis.
Well it isn't, since it's source, dwelling and
disappearance
Are all realized through the knowledge resulting
from meditation,
By your master's blessings and within your
mind's composure,
And is not the pursuit of the shifting intellect.

The dry theory of conceptualizing
Through endless speculations and lists of
contradictions,
Is in no way equal to seeing the nature of your
mind."
Last edited by Jules 09 on Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kai lord
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Kai lord »

Matt J wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:10 pm Thoughts tend to subside in the higher jhanas.....
And certain dzogrim practices.
For example, other Patrul Rinpoche quotes:
Some ‘great meditators’ don’t allow thoughts to arise, but try to push them aside and take hold of their minds. This is not the genuine view; it is suppressing mental states. Instead, allow your mind to settle in stillness whenever it is still and in movement whenever it stirs.
Which is very similar to classic Mahayana scriptures that ridiculed certain mediators (as dull) who tried to attain Nirodha samāpatti through forceful methods but got Asaṃjñi-samāpatti instead and they eventually reborn as unconscious devas.
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heart
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by heart »

Jules 09 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:23 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:05 am Jules, I hope your lack of concepts won't prevent you from publishing your profound Dharma Wisdom in bookform at a major Buddhist publisher. Definite pre-order! :thumbsup:
Books don't teach.

For those who look to books and the internet for clarification, I would suggest that they aspire to meet a living master;
face to face, in person. And if that person's karmic causation and circumstantial conditions permit them to be able to meet such a master and receive the pointing out instructions, then, as mentioned previously:
Without the open warmth and moisture of bodhicitta, there is no genuine Dharma.

Devotion and compassion are vital for a person who wishes to practice Dzogchen.

A famous saying goes: "A closed up person gives rise to no good qualities, just as a scorched seed will never sprout."

Devotion and compassion are indispensable to recognizing the nature of mind when one receives the pointing out instructions.
As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol explained in The Heart of the Matter:

"Saraha, the great brahmin, said:

Those who don't drink their fill
From the cool and soothing nectar of their
master's oral instructions,
Will only be tortured by thirst
On the desert plains of countless treatises.

For this reason, it is essential
Not to pursue nor cling to views proven only by
words,
But to personally begin training in the view and
meditation
Of the lineage of profound meaning.

You may wonder if the prelude to meditation,
the various ways of seeking the mind,
Isn't a conceptualized form of analysis.
Well it isn't, since it's source, dwelling and
disappearance
Are all realized through the knowledge resulting
from meditation,
By your master's blessings and within your
mind's composure,
And is not the pursuit of the shifting intellect.

The dry theory of conceptualizing
Through endless speculations and lists of
contradictions,
Is in no way equal to seeing the nature of your
mind."
Whether your mind is still or whether it moves,
Whatever state it happens to be in,
In essence, it is an unidentifiable freshness,
That has neither color, shape, nor attributes.
And yet, its unobstructed knowing is wide awake.
Whatever thought unfolds, whether good or evil,
It is an utter openness, made out of nothing concrete.
In any of the six sense impressions, whatever is experienced,
It is totally insubstantial, with no clinging to solidity.
Without sinking into dull mindlessness,
It is utter brilliance, aware and awake.
To recognize the natural face of this ordinary mind,
Uncorrupted by the meditation-moods of bliss, clarity and emptiness,
Is known as vipashyana, clear seeing.
Unanimously this is the very heart Of Mahamudra, the Middle Way,
Pacifying, and Cutting.
So simply recognize that alone!

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, The heart of the matter.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Matt J wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:10 pm The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context. Thoughts tend to subside in the higher jhanas, but that is not the practice. I say this because I was caught in this snare for a period of time.

For example, other Patrul Rinpoche quotes:
Some ‘great meditators’ don’t allow thoughts to arise, but try to push them aside and take hold of their minds. This is not the genuine view; it is suppressing mental states. Instead, allow your mind to settle in stillness whenever it is still and in movement whenever it stirs.
No matter what kind of thoughts arise — be they good or bad, positive or negative, happy or sad — don’t indulge them or reject them, but settle, without altering, in the very mind that thinks.
Some ‘great meditators’ are delighted whenever the mind is at ease, but feel frustration whenever agitated thoughts arise. This is not the genuine view; the fault lies in not knowing how to sustain the essence of whatever arises. When agitated thoughts arise, settle out of a state of relaxation directly in the one who feels the agitation.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... meditation

Even these quotes, standing without further context and explanation, can be misleading.
muni wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:20 pm Thank you Rinpoche _/\_
May all be free. "The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche. _/\_
The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context.
No-one has said that the unfabricated naked awareness of Dharmakaya, rigpa, the natural state, is some-thing that needs to be "developed".
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heart
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by heart »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:30 pm No-one has said that the unfabricated naked awareness of Dharmakaya, rigpa, the natural state, is some-thing that needs to be "developed".
No? You have no thoughts? Or you don't understand what developed means?
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

:good: :good:

:group:

:cheers: :cheers:

:heart:
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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

heart wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:13 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:30 pm No-one has said that the unfabricated naked awareness of Dharmakaya, rigpa, the natural state, is some-thing that needs to be "developed".
No? You have no thoughts? Or you don't understand what developed means?
From the perspective of the conceptual thinking of a sentient being, it might seem as though there is something to develop and a path to follow.

From the perspective of the Dharmakaya awareness of Samantabhadra, Rigpa; there is nothing to develop,
because it has always been that way.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:58 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:13 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:30 pm No-one has said that the unfabricated naked awareness of Dharmakaya, rigpa, the natural state, is some-thing that needs to be "developed".
No? You have no thoughts? Or you don't understand what developed means?
From the perspective of the conceptual thinking of a sentient being, it might seem as though there is something to develop and a path to follow.

From the perspective of the Dharmakaya awareness of Samantabhadra, Rigpa; there is nothing to develop,
because it has always been that way.
Yeah, what that means contextually to the thread is that even concepts are primordially pure and don’t need to be modified, eliminated, etc.
Don’t you see what’s wrong with the world today? Oh Everybody wants somebody to be their own piece of clay.

-Marvin Gaye
stoneinfocus
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by stoneinfocus »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:58 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:13 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:30 pm No-one has said that the unfabricated naked awareness of Dharmakaya, rigpa, the natural state, is some-thing that needs to be "developed".
No? You have no thoughts? Or you don't understand what developed means?
From the perspective of the conceptual thinking of a sentient being, it might seem as though there is something to develop and a path to follow.

From the perspective of the Dharmakaya awareness of Samantabhadra, Rigpa; there is nothing to develop,
because it has always been that way.
Well, if you're not in the perspective of Dharmakaya/rigpa 24/7, then it doesn't much matter whether that's the case or not.
stong gzugs
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by stong gzugs »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:08 pm Which is very similar to classic Mahayana scriptures that ridiculed certain mediators (as dull) who tried to attain Nirodha samāpatti through forceful methods but got Asaṃjñi-samāpatti instead and they eventually reborn as unconscious devas.
Can you point us toward the best Mahayana critiques of nirodha samāpatti? I've always found it to be a strange meditative attainment (why is blacking out with baseline metabolic functions a good thing?), but saw Yaśomitra and Sthiramati describe them favorably as accomplishing āśraya-parivṛtti and didn't really explore it further.
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