Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine

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Malcolm
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Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine

Post by Malcolm »

Injrabodi wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:13 am
I have never seen a Buddhist tradition that advocates the spilling of seed for pleasure.
You haven't seen every Buddhist tradition.

Semen, sukra is a waste product. Ojas is the point, not sukra.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
haha
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by haha »

It is major error to say sukra is waste product in term of Ayurveda. It is a main dhatu of the body (i.e. one of the seven), whereas ojas is upadhatu. One cannot increase bliss and heat without this (sukra) because of dependently arising. Even in term of Tibetan Buddhism, they practice “inner heat”, which is not different than any other non-buddhist traditions. Sukra is an indirect fuel for inner heat.

Celibacy is another thing. Vajrayana utilizes anything; it utilizes non-celibacy as well as celibacy. Meaning of celibacy for monk/nun or lay people is quite different.
Soma999
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Soma999 »

Maybe the theory is that the most refined part of shukra becomes ojas with the right practice, and the less refined part of shukra can be emitted without too much problem, considering the sexual activity is done in a way to open the heart, and in no excess.
Malcolm
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:32 am It is major error to say sukra is waste product in term of Ayurveda. It is a main dhatu of the body (i.e. one of the seven), whereas ojas is upadhatu. One cannot increase bliss and heat without this (sukra) because of dependently arising. Even in term of Tibetan Buddhism, they practice “inner heat”, which is not different than any other non-buddhist traditions. Sukra is an indirect fuel for inner heat.

Celibacy is another thing. Vajrayana utilizes anything; it utilizes non-celibacy as well as celibacy. Meaning of celibacy for monk/nun or lay people is quite different.
As someone who is a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, and who studied Ayurveda in India, you are right about sukra being one of the seven main tissues of the body, but the waste product of sutra is bija, and the pure part is ojas. Ojas cultivation is the entire point of rasayana. The bija can be expelled without harm, but not the ojas.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
haha
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by haha »

It is the matter of argument that the ojas is upadhatu of sukra. Location of ojas is indeed in the heart.



Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:02 pm
As someone who is a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, and who studied Ayurveda in India, you are right about sukra being one of the seven main tissues of the body, but the waste product of sutra is bija, and the pure part is ojas. Ojas cultivation is the entire point of rasayana. The bija can be expelled without harm, but not the ojas.
I did not arise any question about what you have done in the past, nor do I have any problem with present. Somebody would say it is upadhatu because of such and such text; another would say that it is not upadahtu because of such and such points. People can have all kind of arguments. However, there is no disagreement in importance of ojas in Ayurveda. By the way, other dhatus also produce ojas.

If somebody says that the bija can be expelled without harm, then one can argue that it will lead anomalies in the vata system. Unnecessary loss of one dhatu means it will lead of malfunction of other dhatus because they are interconnected. Besides, extreme loss of it may lead to death (said in some ayurvedic text). Benefit and harm are just relative; same thing can be beneficial for somebody and harmful for another. I already said that the depletion of sukra dhatu or bija will decrease the inner fire.
Malcolm
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:28 pm By the way, other dhatus also produce ojas.
It depends on how you understand the seven fold process of digestion.

If somebody says that the bija can be expelled without harm, then one can argue that it will lead anomalies in the vata system.
Not in the winter, when one is using a nutritionally rich diet. And in the West, our diets are nutrionally rich all year long. BTW, the ratio that I explained earlier comes from Vagbhata, Aṣṭaṅghridayasamhita. It's also found in the explanatory tantra.
I already said that the depletion of sukra dhatu or bija will decrease the inner fire.
Depletion means overuse. According to the Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, there is an excess of mdangs/ojas in the winter, so there is no danger of depletion. The reason we have this idea of seasons is because the premodern system of food production did not allow people to eat steak, all year long, food stores ran out by early spring, people start to eat bitter greens, and so on. For this reason, ojas could be depleted by excess sexual activity in early spring and summer. In any case, both in the ancient and modern context, the main source of ojas depletion is stress/vata vitiation all by itself, regardless of secondary cause.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Soma999
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Soma999 »

I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.
Malcolm
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:54 pm I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.
Never had any problem.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Kai lord
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Kai lord »

haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:32 am One cannot increase bliss and heat without this (sukra) because of dependently arising. Even in term of Tibetan Buddhism, they practice “inner heat”, which is not different than any other non-buddhist traditions. Sukra is an indirect fuel for inner heat.
Not really an issue for most practitioners since most of us are not doing the real tummo, just rehearsing the process and getting familiar with it.
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by haha »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:39 pm
haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:28 pm By the way, other dhatus also produce ojas.
It depends on how you understand the seven fold process of digestion.
It depends on which text one chooses over another to believe. By the way, it is not my argument.

If somebody says that the bija can be expelled without harm, then one can argue that it will lead anomalies in the vata system.
Not in the winter, when one is using a nutritionally rich diet. And in the West, our diets are nutrionally rich all year long. BTW, the ratio that I explained earlier comes from Vagbhata, Aṣṭaṅghridayasamhita. It's also found in the explanatory tantra.
I already said that the depletion of sukra dhatu or bija will decrease the inner fire.
Depletion means overuse. According to the Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, there is an excess of mdangs/ojas in the winter, so there is no danger of depletion. The reason we have this idea of seasons is because the premodern system of food production did not allow people to eat steak, all year long, food stores ran out by early spring, people start to eat bitter greens, and so on. For this reason, ojas could be depleted by excess sexual activity in early spring and summer. In any case, both in the ancient and modern context, the main source of ojas depletion is stress/vata vitiation all by itself, regardless of secondary cause.
What you have said is ok for normal people who do not engage in any religious practices or any kind of esoteric things. They do not have to harness certain channels, winds and drops.

Many times people have interpreted the texts according to their conditions to fit and with their preference. Besides, western modal of research has their biases as well as merits. Several vajrayana texts, which were compose in India, always mention of not throwing away the sukra (semen). But, they do not restrict the sexual activity for very specific purpose. One can label such narrative as source of dhat- or shen-k’uei syndrome. I am not talking about individual misunderstanding and psychological effects.

“Karpuram kin na vai tyajyam” is just an example. They even provided reasons for this in symbolic ways. At least, Indian masters did not contradict such narratives. Tibetan could have different argument (somewhere you had written about Sapan). If somebody has received Kalacakra, then it is regarded as samaya. I think we are not going to convince each other. I remember how ChNN interpreted it (in term of one ejected it and one would die; but one did not die). I am not going to argue or contradict it.

Kai lord wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:09 pm
haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:32 am One cannot increase bliss and heat without this (sukra) because of dependently arising. Even in term of Tibetan Buddhism, they practice “inner heat”, which is not different than any other non-buddhist traditions. Sukra is an indirect fuel for inner heat.
Not really an issue for most practitioners since most of us are not doing the real tummo, just rehearsing the process and getting familiar with it.
At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.
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Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine

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Split from science and celibacy thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=41491
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Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine

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Moved to new forum due to sub forum posting rules.
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Malcolm
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:59 am Several vajrayana texts, which were compose in India, always mention of not throwing away the sukra (semen). (
The point is pleasure, not semen. We all know what happens when you cum.
If somebody has received Kalacakra, then it is regarded as samaya.


Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen disputes this interpretation.
At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.
Once again, it has nothing to do with semen per se, which is a waste product. In this case it has to do with controlling the apana vayu, not semen itslelf.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Kai lord
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Kai lord »

haha wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:59 am At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.
There are many techniques for inner heat, some utilize red elements (which males have as well at the head chakra but less) instead of white. Some use one chakra instead of four.

Actually Its interesting why you would use tummo practice as an example since the main practice that deals with bindus or drops directly is Karmamudra.
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by haha »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:48 am
haha wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:59 am Several vajrayana texts, which were compose in India, always mention of not throwing away the sukra (semen). (
The point is pleasure, not semen. We all know what happens when you cum.
That is one way of expression; which does not have any contradiction. I could say the point is sensation as pleasure itself is not pleasure, nor the sharp pain is itself the sharp pain. But, vajrayana texts are giving emphasis in semen, too. Ayurveda may have different points.

There are several verses in the Kalacakra as sarcasm. Just an example:

What will increase the bliss (kene sukhabriddhih) if one does ejaculate white substance while being with prajna? From what will the fruit arise if its bud falls in the spring?

Further, it says that ascetic (tapasvi) and libidinous person (kamuka) are similar who ejaculate in dreams or awake; they are like mrigahari (deer-eather) and pigeon; they also do that all the time.

If somebody has received Kalacakra, then it is regarded as samaya.

Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen disputes this interpretation.
Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen might different agenda to fit the narrative to his circumstances. That is fine; everyone does that.
At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.
Once again, it has nothing to do with semen per se, which is a waste product. In this case it has to do with controlling the apana vayu, not semen itslelf.
I have already suggested above that it is the indirect factor (fuel) for inner fire.


Kai lord wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:49 pm
haha wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:59 am At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.
There are many techniques for inner heat, some utilize red elements (which males have as well at the head chakra but less) instead of white. Some use one chakra instead of four.

Actually Its interesting why you would use tummo practice as an example since the main practice that deals with bindus or drops directly is Karmamudra.
I remember they are given in one package. There are several other methods, too, different than you mentions. I have given references from at least two texts above to justify the point why semen is regarded important in those texts as for bliss and inner fire. There are several other reasons, too.
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by rai »

Soma999 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:54 pm I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.
i am just curious. let's say yogi met a girl he couldn't resist and lost the shurkas, how long will it take to rebuild so the fire or bliss is back?
Soma999
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Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine

Post by Soma999 »

There is much that is said about ejaculation, but we have to understand why and how it may be a problem.

Sex is the root, and your head is the top of the tree. What is important is that energy can flow into your body and feed the brain. If sexual intercourse last long enough, you give a chance to energise all your body, and to feed your brain. Then, a certain transmutation occurs. At this moment, if you ejaculate, it is, from my point of view, not a big deal as energy has flown from the roots to the top of the tree, your head.

But if you lost all your semen, too much, too often, you cut the flow of energy, and you feel dull, lost your enthusiasm, feel very tired…

Also, ejaculation is just a biological process. Your mind is of utmost importance. If you lost your semen while having all kind of sexual fantasies, or even fetish, you may feel highly drained. If you ejaculate after a loving intercourse, and with moderation on fantasies, or even better, with your mind connected on wisdom, you will not feel so tired, and can feed joy, enthusiasm and inspiration.

The mind is of utmost importance.
Malcolm
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Malcolm »

rai wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:45 am
Soma999 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:54 pm I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.
i am just curious. let's say yogi met a girl he couldn't resist and lost the shurkas, how long will it take to rebuild so the fire or bliss is back?
A day, because we eat food every day. It takes 28 days to refine ojas. It takes 7 days to refine śukra. When we talk about bodhicitta in the body, this is really the substance we are referring, not khu ba or śukra.

Basically, there are three types of bindu in the body according Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: there is the indestructible bindu in the heart center. If we lose this, we die immediately. There is mdangs or ojas, if we lose too much of this, we will die slowly. Then there is semen, if we don't lose this, we turn into pieces of wood, and eventually, become impotent.

The main cause of losing ojas is stress. Vegan diets are also not healthy. The reasons why so many vegans have that pasty, grey skin tone is that they do not eat enough food rich in dietary fats and sugars.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Sādhaka
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:41 pmThe reasons why so many vegans have that pasty, grey skin tone is that they do not eat enough food rich in dietary fats and sugars.

Or rather that they simply don't eat enough nutrient-dense foods, that is where the nutrients are actually absorbable
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rai
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Re: (science) on celibacy

Post by rai »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:11 am There is much that is said about ejaculation, but we have to understand why and how it may be a problem.

Sex is the root, and your head is the top of the tree. What is important is that energy can flow into your body and feed the brain. If sexual intercourse last long enough, you give a chance to energise all your body, and to feed your brain. Then, a certain transmutation occurs. At this moment, if you ejaculate, it is, from my point of view, not a big deal as energy has flown from the roots to the top of the tree, your head.

But if you lost all your semen, too much, too often, you cut the flow of energy, and you feel dull, lost your enthusiasm, feel very tired…

Also, ejaculation is just a biological process. Your mind is of utmost importance. If you lost your semen while having all kind of sexual fantasies, or even fetish, you may feel highly drained. If you ejaculate after a loving intercourse, and with moderation on fantasies, or even better, with your mind connected on wisdom, you will not feel so tired, and can feed joy, enthusiasm and inspiration.

The mind is of utmost importance.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:41 pm
rai wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:45 am
Soma999 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:54 pm I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.
i am just curious. let's say yogi met a girl he couldn't resist and lost the shurkas, how long will it take to rebuild so the fire or bliss is back?


A day, because we eat food every day. It takes 28 days to refine ojas. It takes 7 days to refine śukra. When we talk about bodhicitta in the body, this is really the substance we are referring, not khu ba or śukra.

Basically, there are three types of bindu in the body according Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: there is the indestructible bindu in the heart center. If we lose this, we die immediately. There is mdangs or ojas, if we lose too much of this, we will die slowly. Then there is semen, if we don't lose this, we turn into pieces of wood, and eventually, become impotent.

The main cause of losing ojas is stress. Vegan diets are also not healthy. The reasons why so many vegans have that pasty, grey skin tone is that they do not eat enough food rich in dietary fats and sugars.
Thank you :anjali:
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