How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Manjukumaar
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How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Manjukumaar »

Hi all,

I read on RigpaWiki that HH Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok recited the Manjushri Mantra over 13 billion times in his life (claim: https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... e_Phuntsok).

But how would this be possible?

13bn mantras is approximately 120 million malas.

If we assume that a person practises this every day from the ages of 20 to 80 (60 years x 365 days), then this would mean around 5,500 malas per day.

If we assume that it takes around two minutes to complete a mala, then that would mean 11,000 minutes or 183 hours per day of japa. How is this possible?
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Josef
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Josef »

Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:03 pm Hi all,

I read on RigpaWiki that HH Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok recited the Manjushri Mantra over 13 billion times in his life (claim: https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... e_Phuntsok).

But how would this be possible?

13bn mantras is approximately 120 million malas.

If we assume that a person practises this every day from the ages of 20 to 80 (60 years x 365 days), then this would mean around 5,500 malas per day.

If we assume that it takes around two minutes to complete a mala, then that would mean 11,000 minutes or 183 hours per day of japa. How is this possible?
It doesnt take two minutes to do a mala of Manjushri's mantra.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Toenail »

You can do it really fast. Also, who says he was counting with a mala? Or with just one body etc?
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Manjukumaar »

Toenail wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:26 pm Or with just one body etc?
What do you mean?
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Toenail »

Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:35 pm
Toenail wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:26 pm Or with just one body etc?
What do you mean?
With samadhi you can do a lot of things. For example one does many prostration at once visualizing many bodies etc. Maybe they do it as well with recitation. Also it is tradition to Hum the mantra and let the mantra circle in visualization spin very fast. Maybe they do a 100 in one second or so.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by lelopa »

maybe he didn't :shrug:
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Lingpupa »

Whether it takes two minutes or half a minute doesn't matter much. It's entirely impossible either way. Some people will believe anything, and many people have no feel for numbers. Engineers old enough to have grown up with a slide rule wouldn't make that kind of mistake.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by lelopa »

When you chant at special days the mantras are multiplied
and when you use a special mala at these days you can come to 13 billions

:mrgreen:
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Natan »

Toenail wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:32 pm
Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:35 pm
Toenail wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:26 pm Or with just one body etc?
What do you mean?
With samadhi you can do a lot of things. For example one does many prostration at once visualizing many bodies etc. Maybe they do it as well with recitation. Also it is tradition to Hum the mantra and let the mantra circle in visualization spin very fast. Maybe they do a 100 in one second or so.
Nope. Otherwise you can multiply yourself to infinity and say it once. That's not how accomplish works. Dhi is the root mantra. People love to blab.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Inedible »

Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:03 pm 13bn mantras is approximately 120 million malas.
It takes about a second to say the mantra of Manjushri. 8 syllables. If you did it for several hours a day and worked for decades, you actually could reach hundreds of millions. But what do you mean by 13bn? It looks like 13 billion to me.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Manjukumaar »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:41 am
Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:03 pm 13bn mantras is approximately 120 million malas.
It takes about a second to say the mantra of Manjushri. 8 syllables. If you did it for several hours a day and worked for decades, you actually could reach hundreds of millions. But what do you mean by 13bn? It looks like 13 billion to me.
Yeah, 13 billion, apparently.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Natan »

Manjukumaar wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:49 pm
Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:41 am
Manjukumaar wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:03 pm 13bn mantras is approximately 120 million malas.
It takes about a second to say the mantra of Manjushri. 8 syllables. If you did it for several hours a day and worked for decades, you actually could reach hundreds of millions. But what do you mean by 13bn? It looks like 13 billion to me.
Yeah, 13 billion, apparently.
No one would ever know if he was keeping count. And the feats of Tibetan lamas are like fishing trips. The more it's told the feat grows bigger. The main point is that the master mantras is to repeat them many many times. Tantras are clear most of us need many repetitions. But repetitions alone do not suffice. There must be belief. The mantra recitation should have certain qualities. Quality is more important than quantity. But no one achieved anything without repetition.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by dharmadhatu »

it is not 13 billion but 1.3 billion
13x 100 million
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by FieldBob »

Here is how you do it. its called the shadow clone technique 🍥

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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

I’m not sure how many Rinpoche actually recited, but Inbet he started when he was a child, not at 20. He was a tulku and a terton. You’re also only counting waking hours. He was undoubtedly a consummate practitioner of dream yoga.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Virgo »

Lingpupa wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:11 am Whether it takes two minutes or half a minute doesn't matter much. It's entirely impossible either way. Some people will believe anything, and many people have no feel for numbers. Engineers old enough to have grown up with a slide rule wouldn't make that kind of mistake.
It would only have taken him slightly more than 412 years total uttering one mantra per second, non-stop, since birth, without sleeping, to complete the task of uttering 13 billion mantras. Nevertheless, note that it still appears on his wiki page to this day, and that more posts on this thread support the idea that he did accomplish it rather than did not.

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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Virgo »

I guess I also have to point out (because some people won't understand) that Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche would not want people to say he completed 13 billion Manjushri mantras since he did not do it, and since posturing that he did is beyond ridiculous. He would want the real number that he completed reflected, not a fake exaggeration.

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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by kirtu »

dharmadhatu wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:14 am it is not 13 billion but 1.3 billion
13x 100 million
That would take around 62 years.
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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by Virgo »

kirtu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:26 pm
dharmadhatu wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:14 am it is not 13 billion but 1.3 billion
13x 100 million
That would take around 62 years.
At one second per mantra, non-stop, since birth, without sleeping it would take over 41 years. I am not sure exactly how you are calculating it, but given the ambiguity of how long it takes to recite mantras, our estimates are very similar. Of course, either of these two estimates would be impossible, since they don't allow for anything but saying mantras without eating or sleeping since age zero. Therefore, there is no way that he accomplished even 1.3 billion mantras.

It just didn't happen.

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Re: How did Jigme Phuntsok recite 13bn Manjushri Mantras?

Post by kirtu »

kirtu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:26 pm
dharmadhatu wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:14 am it is not 13 billion but 1.3 billion
13x 100 million
That would take around 62 years.
1,300,000,000 / (80 Manjushri mantras/minute*60 minutes*12 hours per day * 365 days in a year) = 61.83 years

And the Manjushri mantra I used in "Om Ah Ra Pa Tsa Na Dhi", 80 of which in one minute is a conservative estimate, 57,600 mantras a day. This is not excessive for a concentrated retreat.

It just takes awhile to get to 1.3 billon. A 100 M retreat would take 4.76 years. These are doable before we get to extraordinary means.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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