Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:01 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm

The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.

In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen.
So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.
Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
This sounds a bit vague, further clarification could be helpful for some who may read this.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:36 pm
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen.
So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru.

Just to clarify, i made a slight error, he describes of Dzogchen equipoise as follows:

In brief, comprehending all phenomena to be completely equivalent with mirages and illusions is the comprehension of the meaning of Great Perfection, called “view”. Abiding without being separate from such a comprehending mind is called “being connected with the vessel of total awareness.” (shes bzhin chen po) Under its influence, not using any effort at all is “abiding in the state of total equanimity ” (gtan snyoms chen po), i.e. “meditation”. [111/b] Those three sentences complete the view and meditation of the Great Perfection in its entirety.

The indirect method is for those who cannot be in this state: gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.

He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: sense isolation (pratyāhāra), concentration (dhyāna), prāṇāyama, sustaining (dhāraṇa), mindfulness (smṛti), and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

He closes his text by remarking that any practice connected with Dzogchen view will be skillful, but if it is not connected with Dzogchen view, it will not be skillful.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:36 pm
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen.
So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:36 pm


So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
Intellect is an aspect of Rigpas display, this is how it is explained in a number of teachings.

This whole line of questioning is the reason we practice Rushens and learn the separation of samsara and nirvana. Across the entire Mahayana, we know this separation is not really there, but one has to understand the difference between the intellect as display of Marigpa or Rigpa.

Rigpa is not a quiescence where we just avoid or discard thought. In most semde presentations I am aware of, one experiences -more movement- rather than less as one progresses, it is not the grasping mind but movement which is not separate from minds luminosity, again a display of Rigpa rather than Marigpa.

This is a very important point of Dzogchen teachings that I think you are not getting. There is no idealized world free from thought, beings and Buddha’s have different paths -only- due to Rigpa or Marigpa, not content of thought, lack of movement, etc.

This is an experiential thing, but once one has experience of it the difference between this and typical proliferation of the conceptual mind is intuitively known.

Similarly, this implicit idea that words and concepts cannot effectively point out Rigpa is wrong, if you go through a cycle of teaching with a teacher lots of this stuff is explicit.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:36 pm


So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception, the meaning pristine consciousness, as exemplified in this passage by Candrakīrti, "The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya."

However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness. Khenpo Ngachung also notes:

Since the pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those with sharp capacity is very sharp, there is no need to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise. [40/b] The pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those of dull capacity needs to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise and by the difference of whether one needs or does not need to settle in such ascertainment, one’s path is swift or slow. But there is no good or bad in the type of realization.

Those who do not need to ascertain pristine consciousness in post-equipoise are cig car was. But there are very few of those. As Zhigpo Dudtsi, a famous thirteenth century Dzogchen master stated, "I have searched high and low among the siddhas of India and Tibet, and while I cannot rule out the possibility of others, the only cig car was I know of are Saraha and Lingje Repa (founder of the Drukpa Kagyu)."

Most of us are people who have a need to confirm their experience with concepts in post-equipoise, just like ārya bodhisattvas.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm

Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.



He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception, the meaning pristine consciousness, as exemplified in this passage by Candrakīrti, "The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya."

However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness. Khenpo Ngachung also notes:

Since the pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those with sharp capacity is very sharp, there is no need to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise. [40/b] The pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those of dull capacity needs to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise and by the difference of whether one needs or does not need to settle in such ascertainment, one’s path is swift or slow. But there is no good or bad in the type of realization.

Those who do not need to ascertain pristine consciousness in post-equipoise are cig car was. But there are very few of those. As Zhigpo Dudtsi, a famous thirteenth century Dzogchen master stated, "I have searched high and low among the siddhas of India and Tibet, and while I cannot rule out the possibility of others, the only cig car was I know of are Saraha and Lingje Repa (founder of the Drukpa Kagyu)."

Most of us are people who have a need to confirm their experience with concepts in post-equipoise, just like ārya bodhisattvas.
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception,
Are you saying that direct perception (rigpa), of the nature of mind (mind essence, chos nyid), corresponds with
an intellectual understanding
that is established prior to that direct perception?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Archie2009 »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm



"He" = Rongzom?





So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception, the meaning pristine consciousness, as exemplified in this passage by Candrakīrti, "The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya."

However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness. Khenpo Ngachung also notes:

Since the pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those with sharp capacity is very sharp, there is no need to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise. [40/b] The pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those of dull capacity needs to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise and by the difference of whether one needs or does not need to settle in such ascertainment, one’s path is swift or slow. But there is no good or bad in the type of realization.

Those who do not need to ascertain pristine consciousness in post-equipoise are cig car was. But there are very few of those. As Zhigpo Dudtsi, a famous thirteenth century Dzogchen master stated, "I have searched high and low among the siddhas of India and Tibet, and while I cannot rule out the possibility of others, the only cig car was I know of are Saraha and Lingje Repa (founder of the Drukpa Kagyu)."

Most of us are people who have a need to confirm their experience with concepts in post-equipoise, just like ārya bodhisattvas.
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception,
Are you saying that direct perception (rigpa), of the nature of mind (mind essence, chos nyid), corresponds with
an intellectual understanding
that is established prior to that direct perception?
It's as if you're making a deliberate effort not to understand.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 pm However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness.
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well, do any other masters agree with Khenpo Nga on that?

So the concentration in the first two visions are similar to the experiences in the first dhyana?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:26 pm
Are you saying that direct perception (rigpa), of the nature of mind (mind essence, chos nyid), corresponds with
an intellectual understanding
that is established prior to that direct perception?
Yes, necessarily so:

In Dzogchen we have three main methods of transmission: oral, symbolic, and direct transmission. The first, oral transmission, implies that the teacher transmits by explaining what is the base and what is knowledge (rig pa), and how one can have that knowledge. The student listens and follows, and he or she can have at least an idea of what Dzogchen means. The oral transmission is also linked with the symbolic transmission in that in the latter some symbolic objects are used to make that knowledge understood...The third method, direct transmission, implies one already has knowledge of the oral and symbolic transmission. Through these two, one has an idea of how to enter into the real nature; then by using different experiences together and entering in that real nature at the same moment with one's teacher, there is a possibility that one receives the direct transmission. So direct transmission implies the possibility of receiving knowledge, when the student already knows how to work while the teacher transmits that knowledge."

Chogyal Namkahi Norbu, Song of the Vajra, pp.3-5. Dzogchen Community of American, 1992.

It is also explained in this way in the Dzogchen tantras and all the commentaries that touch on the subject of introduction.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:44 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:24 pm Do semde and menngagde differ much in view, path and fruit?
You should consult the Chos dbying mdzod commentary on this. But briefly put, sems sde mainly concerns the basis and man ngag sde mainly concerns the path and result. Klong sde links sems sde and man ngag sde.
I have that commentary so I'll do that thanks. I guess that means semde and longde concepts are also applicable for trekcho pratice then since that volume deals with trekcho
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:47 pm

Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.



He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception, the meaning pristine consciousness, as exemplified in this passage by Candrakīrti, "The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya."

However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness. Khenpo Ngachung also notes:

Since the pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those with sharp capacity is very sharp, there is no need to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise. [40/b] The pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those of dull capacity needs to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise and by the difference of whether one needs or does not need to settle in such ascertainment, one’s path is swift or slow. But there is no good or bad in the type of realization.

Those who do not need to ascertain pristine consciousness in post-equipoise are cig car was. But there are very few of those. As Zhigpo Dudtsi, a famous thirteenth century Dzogchen master stated, "I have searched high and low among the siddhas of India and Tibet, and while I cannot rule out the possibility of others, the only cig car was I know of are Saraha and Lingje Repa (founder of the Drukpa Kagyu)."

Most of us are people who have a need to confirm their experience with concepts in post-equipoise, just like ārya bodhisattvas.


Thogal can be equated with shamatha and vipassana also like how the Two Stages can? That's very interesting and a clearer way to present it

I mean, thogal and trekcho are not really taught separately in Bon so methods for the latter carry over to the former there but this is the first time I hear Nyingma presenting it the same way
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:39 am Thogal can be equated with shamatha and vipassana also like how the Two Stages can? That's very interesting and a clearer way to present it
Yup.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:46 pm
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well...
I didn't say that or mean to imply that.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:32 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:46 pm
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well...
I didn't say that or mean to imply that.
Ok my bad.......Jamyang Loter Wangpo wrote down his experiences for the first two visions of Thogal but too bad it wasn't translated yet.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:32 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:46 pm
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well...
I didn't say that or mean to imply that.
Ok my bad.......Jamyang Loter Wangpo wrote down his experiences for the first two visions of Thogal but too bad it wasn't translated yet.
Yes it has. But I am not prepared to share it at this point. But frankly, it’s no different than any other such texts.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:11 am
Passing By wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:39 am Thogal can be equated with shamatha and vipassana also like how the Two Stages can? That's very interesting and a clearer way to present it
Yup.
BTW, since we are on this topic, could you explain the difference in dang and rolpa? The Bon cycles don't seem to use these terms (other than tsal) so I am a bit lost when I join Nyingma teachings and hear it for the first few times.

They say everything is the radiance of the dang energy so I'm presuming it refers to the knowing/conscious aspect of the Base? Then what is rolpa? The appearances that are reflected in consciousness themselves? I thought that was tsal though
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Shaiksha
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Shaiksha »

Passing By wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:05 am BTW, since we are on this topic, could you explain the difference in dang and rolpa? The Bon cycles don't seem to use these terms (other than tsal) so I am a bit lost when I join Nyingma teachings and hear it for the first few times.

They say everything is the radiance of the dang energy so I'm presuming it refers to the knowing/conscious aspect of the Base? Then what is rolpa? The appearances that are reflected in consciousness themselves? I thought that was tsal though
Hello,

Let me help Malcolm with his workload here - hope I don't mess it up. There are many explanations that can be given on this but one of the clearest explanations (for me anyway) is detailed by Malcolm in the Wisdom Lecture Series: The Brilliance of Dzogchen (specifically, Lecture 6 on the Origin of Delusion).

In essence, when we practice trekcho, we are working with the tsal energy, where thoughts and other mental appearances are self-liberated. Overtime, the tsal energy becomes subtler and turns into the rolpa energy. We then practice thogal and work with the rolpa energy (visions in your direct perception, which if I am not mistaken are a form of subtle thoughts). Overtime, it too becomes subtler and turns into the dang energy, which is very subtle. Finally, the dang energy is exhausted and it completely vanishes into emptiness. Now, tsal corresponds to the dharmakaya, rolpa with the Sambhogakaya and tsal with the nirmanakaya. Therefore, it is said there are no 3 kayas in the result! By implication, I think that the different forms of energies are actually of the same nature, just different manifestations.

Further, it is said that the tsal energy has green colour and is the support of every living being or it is the energy of our own consciousness.

There are other explanations, such as dang energy is likened to the crystal ball, etc. You can also read more about this in Crystal and the Way of Light as well as Dzogchen: the Self-perfected State.

But, I found the above explanation really helps with my practice as it gives another perspective of what I am doing. For example, we are advised that our trekcho practice should be stabilized or matured first before we proceed to the thogal practice. This now makes sense because there is no point to practice thogal if our tsal energy still dominates (e.g. mental proliferations or coarse thoughts, getting distracted all the time, etc)
Last edited by Shaiksha on Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:42 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Tao »

> Now, tsal corresponds to the dharmakaya, rolpa with the Sambhogakaya and tsal with the nirmanakaya.

First Tsal is Dang I presume. ¿?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Kai lord »

Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Shaiksha »

Tao wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:04 am > Now, tsal corresponds to the dharmakaya, rolpa with the Sambhogakaya and tsal with the nirmanakaya.

First Tsal is Dang I presume. ¿?
Sorry, yes. It should have been dang. Thanks for the correction.
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