Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

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Natan
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Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Natan »

Rongzompa was an interesting guy with unique writings. His biographies and the scholarship are vague and inconsistent about what he was exposed to in terms of Dzogchen tantras. His writings make it seem that he was only commenting on Guhyagarbha and Semde. But one of his biographies says he got everything from the Vimalamitra side including Nyingthig or Dzogchen tantras and that he had his own terma that are lost. Also scholarship acknowledges he may have been exposed to Dzogchen tantras and purposely chose not to talk about Tregcho and Togal for whatever reason.

So those who may be in the know with regard to Rongzompa, what's the case? What are the educated opinions on what his writings reflect in terms of his experience? It would be odd to equate him with Longchenpa, which he is, if all he understood was Guhyagarbha and mind class. Also his commentaries on Guhyagarbha are also said to interpret Guhyagarbha as Dzogchen
as Longchenpa does and not strictly Mahayoga in the way of Zurpa.

Here's a guy that predated Longchenpa by 400 years and was contemporary with Marpa Lotsawa. It appears some of his ideas were either coincidentally similar to the way things developed in Marpa's line or there may have been some.cross fertilization.

This is an interesting topic to me and would be fascinated by what the state of the art research shows.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Kai lord »

Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:18 pm Here's a guy that predated Longchenpa by 400 years and was contemporary with Marpa Lotsawa. It appears some of his ideas were either coincidentally similar to the way things developed in Marpa's line or there may have been some.cross fertilization.
300 years or less. Rongzompa was rather active in 11th century whereas Longchenpa lived in early half of the 14th century. Earliest current dating for written Longde and Seventeen Tantras were 11th century. The first generation of tertons might start appearing around this period as well.

Kalachakra tantras was also spreading at rapid rate in Tibet during the 11th century. So cross influences are highly likely.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Natan »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:53 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:18 pm Here's a guy that predated Longchenpa by 400 years and was contemporary with Marpa Lotsawa. It appears some of his ideas were either coincidentally similar to the way things developed in Marpa's line or there may have been some.cross fertilization.
300 years or less. Rongzompa was rather active in 11th century whereas Longchenpa lived in early half of the 14th century. Earliest current dating for written Longde and Seventeen Tantras were 11th century. The first generation of tertons might start appearing around this period as well.

Kalachakra tantras was also spreading at rapid rate in Tibet during the 11th century. So cross influences are highly likely.
300 years or less is that certain? Was Rongzompa not a terton? Can we say with any confidence he received Vimalamitra dharma? Hmmmmmm.
Last edited by Natan on Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:36 pm
300 years or less is that certain? Was Rongzompa not a terton? Can we say with any confidence he received Vimalamitra dharma? Hmmmmmm.
In terms of the Nyingma tradition, he received several systems that traditionally claimed Indian roots: Guhyagarbha, Vajrakīla/Vajrakilāya, Semde or "Mind Class" traditions stemming from Vairocana and Yudra Nyingpo (g.yu sgra snying po); the Kham system of Dzogchen transmitted via Vimalamitra and his chief disciples Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo (myang ban ting 'dzin bzang po), Ma Rinchen Chok (rma rin chen mchog) and Nyak Jñānakumāra (gnyags dz+nyA na ku mA ra).
https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... angpo/6194
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by ThreeVows »

Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:36 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:53 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:18 pm Here's a guy that predated Longchenpa by 400 years and was contemporary with Marpa Lotsawa. It appears some of his ideas were either coincidentally similar to the way things developed in Marpa's line or there may have been some.cross fertilization.
300 years or less. Rongzompa was rather active in 11th century whereas Longchenpa lived in early half of the 14th century. Earliest current dating for written Longde and Seventeen Tantras were 11th century. The first generation of tertons might start appearing around this period as well.

Kalachakra tantras was also spreading at rapid rate in Tibet during the 11th century. So cross influences are highly likely.
300 years or less is that certain? Was Rongzompa not a terton? Can we say with any confidence he received Vimalamitra dharma? Hmmmmmm.
FWIW he is listed in the Dudjom incarnation line, if that matters to anyone. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... m%20Lingpa.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Kai lord »

Natan wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:36 pm 300 years or less is that certain?
Yes as both he and Longchenpa got lots of famous contemporaries.
Was Rongzompa not a terton?
Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
Can we say with any confidence he received Vimalamitra dharma? Hmmmmmm.
Dangma Lhundrup was the holder of Vima Nytingtik in the 10th to 11th century. But we don't know much about his life other than He got a famous disciple called Chetsun Sengge Wangchuk.

Dangma could have met Rongzompa and passed the teaching down to the latter.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm Dangma Lhundrup was the holder of Vima Nytingtik in the 10th to 11th century. But we don't know much about his life other than He got a famous disciple called Chetsun Sengge Wangchuk.
Only for about 15-30 years in the mid 11th, since he met Chetsun after Atisha passed away, according to the earliest text where he is mentioned, the Great Chronicle from the Vima Nyingthik.

Shenchen Luga (Bonpo), Trapa Nönshe, and Sonam Lama were definitely earlier.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by ThreeVows »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
To be clear, there are tertons in the sense of those that reveal treasures specifically from Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, Vimalamitra, etc, which is basically specifically a Nyingma thing. But then there are essentially realized beings who reveal any number of things that aren't specifically from those individuals. I would imagine Rongzom was quite capable of that, even if he wasn't explicitly/specifically a Nyingma terton. He is, also, listed in the same line as the Dudjom incarnations.

Also, there are sort of the formal, major tertons and then there are perhaps almost innumerable minor tertons. Many tertons may not formally reveal obvious termas, and some may reveal mind termas that aren't necessarily recognized as termas or that aren't propagated, etc.

Anyway... some words for what they're worth, as it came to mind to mention.
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Malcolm
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:01 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
To be clear, there are tertons in the sense of those that reveal treasures specifically from Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, Vimalamitra, etc, which is basically specifically a Nyingma thing.
It is also a Bonpo thing.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:32 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:01 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
To be clear, there are tertons in the sense of those that reveal treasures specifically from Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, Vimalamitra, etc, which is basically specifically a Nyingma thing.
It is also a Bonpo thing.
Well, at least we don't see the dakas and dakinis showing any preference in which classes of tantra they pay the most attention to.

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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Kai lord »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:01 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
Also, there are sort of the formal, major tertons and then there are perhaps almost innumerable minor tertons. Many tertons may not formally reveal obvious termas, and some may reveal mind termas that aren't necessarily recognized as termas or that aren't propagated, etc.
I had considered that possibility before but in order for a new movement or tradition to take root, the first or first generation of tertons had to be not only credible practitioners but also a highly respectable social status of that time and place.

For example, the whole treasure teaching thingy was allegedly started by Buddha who taught abhidhamma in the heaven 9f the thirty three devas before revealing it to His human disciples. Few centuries later Nagarjuna did the same and they are all highly respectable individuals with high attainments in their practices.

So the same logic has to apply to the start of terma tradition in Tibet. So it was likely started by non minor tertons.

Furthermore the revelations have to be large or important enough to attract widespread attention and interest. So its not surprising that the first termas revealed important written teavhings like the four medical tantras and seventeen dzogchen tantras.

However having said this, it doesn't rule out those brave and relatively unknown individuals who tried to kick start the movement before the major revealers but failed.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm
Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
Sangye Lama was the first terton (not to be confused with Sangye Lingpa. Dangma Lhungyal is the one who discovered the 17 Nyingtig tantras, which were hidden by Vima’s disciple Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo in a pillar in a gompa Dangma was a caretaker of.
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Natan »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:40 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:47 pm
Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.
Sangye Lama was the first terton (not to be confused with Sangye Lingpa. Dangma Lhungyal is the one who discovered the 17 Nyingtig tantras, which were hidden by Vima’s disciple Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo in a pillar in a gompa Dangma was a caretaker of.
Lord Jigten Sumgon revealed a whole ton of methods. Had nothing to do with Padmasambhava
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Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

I’m unsure how Jigten Sumgon has anything to do with my statement. He wasn’t born until 143 years after Sangye Lama, whom as I stated was the first terton.
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