On fetters

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Jokingfish
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On fetters

Post by Jokingfish »

Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?

Ty.

Edit milarepa wrote songs, is that considered playing music or just poetry? Hakuin ekaku painted a lot, does that mean he is lower than non returner, then, at that time when created artworks?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On fetters

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:24 pm Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?
…or does it simply mean they won’t be fettered to those things?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
anagarika
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Re: On fetters

Post by anagarika »

This will vary among the different Buddhist schools I guess.

In Theravada, all art is classified as sensual phenomenon - or I should say the ultimate refinement of sensuality. You would have to ask a non-returner directly to get a 100% correct answer, but my understanding is that at this level of development you derive pleasure from Dhammic activities only (especially jhana, which should be quite easy at this stage as there are virtually no obstacles). I can imagine that if the said anagami had already been artistically oriented before the attainment, they might offer their skills at the service of the Dhamma and produce some art to promote the teachings, such as illustrating books. They might probably also write books themselves. In the Pali canon, there is a section called Theragatha - short verses uttered by arahants immediately after attaining nibbana. This suggests that not all forms of artistic expression are by default excluded even at such high level of cultivation.

That being said, people sometimes underestimate the attainment of becoming an anagami. An anagami is much closer to an arahant than to a sakadagami (once-returner). At this stage you´re pretty much out of samsara with one foot so the vast majority of things you now hold dear and desirable will probably lose their magic once you become a non-returner. Complete transcendence of sensuality is a monumental victory and should not be taken for granted.

As for other schools, I´d say that Vajrayana will probably be more open towards artistic expression even for saints. It´s a completely different system.
Kai lord
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Re: On fetters

Post by Kai lord »

Jokingfish wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:24 pm Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?

Ty.

Edit milarepa wrote songs, is that considered playing music or just poetry? Hakuin ekaku painted a lot, does that mean he is lower than non returner, then, at that time when created artworks?
You are confusing hearers' system of liberation with Mahayana levels of realization and Vajrayana methods of transformation. Thats why your question is confusing and you received confusing answers as a result.

For example in Mahayana presentation of bhumis, there is no third stage of enlightenment nor one that is named as "non returner". Fetters are not used instead afflictive obstructions are used instead.

Furthermore in Milarepa case, the five poisons such as desire can be transformed into wisdom after recognizing its true nature. They are not abandoned like in the hearers' system
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Tao
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Re: On fetters

Post by Tao »

Famous Mahayana quote: problem is not enjoyment, problem is attachment. - Tilopa

So for Mahayana enjoying arts is ok. Attachment to it, is not.
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Agent Smith
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Re: On fetters

Post by Agent Smith »

Fetters is the apposite word - it's almost a given I would say. The OP does make a connection with a deeper level of truth and it'd be to our benefit if some advanced practitioners could follow this lead; I have a feeling it's gonna be worth the effort.
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