Twelve Links

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Astus
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:54 pmMy point about the links prior to ‘birth’ is that, as you noted, they can’t be changed. Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.
I meant that once a being was born what had happened before that had already happened. But it doesn't mean that before birth there was no birth, it's just that that was another life. So when the twelve links are split into three lives, then the first two are in the previous life, the middle eight in the present life, and the last two in the future life. At the same time, the current life is the past of the next one and the future of the previous one.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Kai lord
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Kai lord »

clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:54 pm Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.
As shown before, craving is the cause for future suffering. Stopping the arising of craving leads to liberation from samsara.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by haha »

Pratītyasamutpāda, those twelve links, can be presented in numerous ways; four noble truths are just a concise presentation of it. One will find very diverse way of contemplation about it in Dasabhumika sutra.

The point is already addressed as the quote but not answered or I did not thoroughly read the posts. Its meaning is very precise or I am deluding myself. Becoming (whatever translation one prefers for bhava) is related to three categories of existence. But when it comes to Mahayana, one should add another becoming. Definitely it is suddhaksetra or buddhaksetra such as Avirati, Shukhavati, etc. What is this becoming? In this context, one sees vision of those lands or Lord or his attendants due to some kind of habituation. It could be when one is alive or about to die; it is becoming. If one appears inside the lotus, then it is Jati. Likewise, when Sakyamuni was bodhisatta and he was doing extreme austerity, he retold that he saw vision of lower existence due to such practices. It is becoming. So, he stopped such practices; otherwise he might have “jati” in lower realms.
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Aemilius
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:34 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:59 am

Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.
Becoming has more aspects than the karma/volition aspect.
In both Nāgārjuna's presentation as wel as Vasuvandhu's, bhāva = karma. Among the four conditions, it would be the adhipati-pratyaya aka karana hetu.
Does one's karma cause the semen and ovum of one's parents and the chromosomes contained there in? Does it cause the food and the elements that one's body is composed of ? Does it cause the country and its laws and the human comunity one is reborn into?
If karma is bhava, then bhava does not exist without many other factors.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:26 am If karma is bhava, then bhava does not exist without many other factors.
The cause of karma is affliction. And BTW, you are mixing up presentations. The six causes/four conditions presentation is a general presentation of every kind of cause and condition, while dependent origination applies solely to living beings.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:00 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:26 am If karma is bhava, then bhava does not exist without many other factors.
The cause of karma is affliction. And BTW, you are mixing up presentations. The six causes/four conditions presentation is a general presentation of every kind of cause and condition, while dependent origination applies solely to living beings.
There are also objects of perception in the dependent origination, and there is the realm into which one is born. In buddhist analysis there are four kinds of birth (from egg, moisture, womb and the miraculous birth). These four kinds of birth imply certain physical causalities, which are thus present in the wheel of becoming.
Dependent origination operates in the six realms of samsara and in their thousands and millions of subrealms, i.e. different species of beings and their environments. Living beings do not exist apart from realms and environments. Thus a vast network of causality is implied by the teaching of the wheel of becoming (bhava-chakra).
The general form of dependent origination is: "this being that becomes, from the arising of this that arises; in the absence of this, that does not become; when this does not arise, that does not arise." This applies also to physical phenomena, like sunlight, rain, seasons, the four great elements, etc...
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Thank you all for sharing.

I was going to leave it at that, but I remembered that the “Twelve Links” are in an endless chain (over multiple lives), so (obviously) the last link is linked to the first link. If we write out that step using the same form as the previous steps, then:
With old age, death, and the mass of suffering as a condition, ignorance arises.
Which reminded me of The Five Remembrances.
The Five Remembrances

I am of the nature to grow old. There is no way to escape growing old.

I am of the nature to have ill health. There is no way to escape ill health.

I am of the nature to die. There is no way to escape death.

All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change. There is no way to escape being separated from them.

My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand.

Thich Nhat Hanh, The Plum Village Chanting Book
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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