Default Mode Network

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Johnny Dangerous
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Default Mode Network

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network

https://neuroscientificallychallenged.c ... de-network

Thought people might find this interesting, I was exposed to this Neuroscience concept a while back as a result of my work and schooling. Basically this is a system (meaning basically different brain regions functioning together) that daydreams, hypothesizes about the future, ruminates on the past, etc. It is most active during states of “rest”, though it seems that what constitutes rest is debated.

I assume it is probably the system that becomes most active when we meditate as that is a time when we are not actively focused on a task. I guess though how active it would be would depend on how narrow our concentration is. I know one of the first things I noticed upon seriously taking up meditation was a constantly running background script, which git more and more subtle, maybe even abstract as time went by.

Anyway, it’s hypothesized that this systems evolutionary significance is basically future planning, brainstorming problems, etc., put in a Buddhist context it’s easy to see how it can be a direct source of suffering when grasped.
Don’t you see what’s wrong with the world today? Oh Everybody wants somebody to be their own piece of clay.

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Re: Default Mode Network

Post by Tao »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:47 pm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network

https://neuroscientificallychallenged.c ... de-network

Thought people might find this interesting, I was exposed to this Neuroscience concept a while back as a result of my work and schooling. Basically this is a system (meaning basically different brain regions functioning together) that daydreams, hypothesizes about the future, ruminates on the past, etc. It is most active during states of “rest”, though it seems that what constitutes rest is debated.

I assume it is probably the system that becomes most active when we meditate as that is a time when we are not actively focused on a task. I guess though how active it would be would depend on how narrow our concentration is. I know one of the first things I noticed upon seriously taking up meditation was a constantly running background script, which git more and more subtle, maybe even abstract as time went by.

Anyway, it’s hypothesized that this systems evolutionary significance is basically future planning, brainstorming problems, etc., put in a Buddhist context it’s easy to see how it can be a direct source of suffering when grasped.
I may be wrong but I see our actual DMN as the chatter/daydreaming when we're not mindful.

So when meditating there's no DMN, just when you're daydreaming.

When you meditate your atention is focused like when you're studying, so no DMN. When you meditate you should be focused, and the task is being focused (an empty task but a task). Daydreaming is DMN, and in meditation daydreaming is a situation to avoid.

Again, I maybe wrong, but I mostly see complete-mindfulness as a never-activation-of-DMN.

Gary Weber (non buddhist teacher) works a lot with the DMN concept. His take on that is that enligtenment is the complete change of the DMN to a different new DMN which is basically full-atention (no chatter or daydreaming). Or the victory of atention from being the exception to being the DMN.
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Re: Default Mode Network

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Tao wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:15 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:47 pm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network

https://neuroscientificallychallenged.c ... de-network

Thought people might find this interesting, I was exposed to this Neuroscience concept a while back as a result of my work and schooling. Basically this is a system (meaning basically different brain regions functioning together) that daydreams, hypothesizes about the future, ruminates on the past, etc. It is most active during states of “rest”, though it seems that what constitutes rest is debated.

I assume it is probably the system that becomes most active when we meditate as that is a time when we are not actively focused on a task. I guess though how active it would be would depend on how narrow our concentration is. I know one of the first things I noticed upon seriously taking up meditation was a constantly running background script, which git more and more subtle, maybe even abstract as time went by.

Anyway, it’s hypothesized that this systems evolutionary significance is basically future planning, brainstorming problems, etc., put in a Buddhist context it’s easy to see how it can be a direct source of suffering when grasped.
I may be wrong but I see our actual DMN as the chatter/daydreaming when we're not mindful.

So when meditating there's no DMN, just when you're daydreaming.
Some of the research around it involves meditation, as mentioned, it becomes active when the mind is at rest. Part of the process of basic meditation is to notice distraction and return.
When you meditate your atention is focused like when you're studying, so no DMN. When you meditate you should be focused, and the task is being focused (an empty task but a task). Daydreaming is DMN, and in meditation daydreaming is a situation to avoid.
By definition, only concentrative meditation would block it. Forms that involve a more open awareness or resting would cause it to activate.
Again, I maybe wrong, but I mostly see complete-mindfulness as a never-activation-of-DMN.
As far as I know you are misunderstanding the concept, it activates when the mind is at rest. I think you are also conflating mindfulness with concentration. Mindfulness does not mean non-thought.
Gary Weber (non buddhist teacher) works a lot with the DMN concept. His take on that is that enligtenment is the complete change of the DMN to a different new DMN which is basically full-atention (no chatter or daydreaming). Or the victory of atention from being the exception to being the DMN.
That’s the attainment of shamatha in Buddhism, not a bad goal but at least in Buddhist terms, partial.
Don’t you see what’s wrong with the world today? Oh Everybody wants somebody to be their own piece of clay.

-Marvin Gaye
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Re: Default Mode Network

Post by Tao »

> Some of the research around it involves meditation, as mentioned, it becomes active when the mind is at rest. Part of the process of basic meditation is to notice distraction and return.

Ok, to the second part. For me when you notice distraction you were in the DMN. And then you switch to non-DMN

> By definition, only concentrative meditation would block it. Forms that involve a more open awareness or resting would cause it to activate.

Mental silence also will come at due time with more open meditation. It's just a question of pacifying.

DMN will be bloked by any conscious intention of using your mind. Non samatha meditation too.

> As far as I know you are misunderstanding the concept, it activates when the mind is at rest.

Not at rest, is when the mind havent got a task to focus on, nothing to do, so it start chattering and daydreaming, that's the more clear indication of DMN. It's DMN basically because it does think (it's not silence as one will expect), but it's chatter and dreaming. The monkey mind. Not at rest. Usually even more active than non-DMN, that was a surprise and give birth to the concept.

> I think you are also conflating mindfulness with concentration. Mindfulness does not mean non-thought.

Be mindful and tell me how many thoughts arise in the first, lets say 2 minutes of complete mindfulness... if you dont loose mindfulness... and dont force its arising...
Gary Weber (non buddhist teacher) works a lot with the DMN concept. His take on that is that enligtenment is the complete change of the DMN to a different new DMN which is basically full-atention (no chatter or daydreaming). Or the victory of atention from being the exception to being the DMN.
> That’s the attainment of shamatha in Buddhism, not a bad goal but at least in Buddhist terms, partial.
[/quote]

He means absolutly at all times. And without effort. Partial or not will depend on if dukkha is present or not.

Anyway he is not a buddhist, so you can say his attainment is partial. No problem for me or him (he is a good friend).

Best regards
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