Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

krodha
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by krodha »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 amIt is said that when the expression (display) dawns as sherab, as knowledge - when the expression knows its own nature - it is liberated, there is freedom. When the expression moves as thought, as thinking, it is bewildered - there is delusion.
In this distinction lies the whole difference.
Thought is only the utmost tip of the iceberg of delusion. The connate avidyā underlies imputation, which is non-recognition of the nature of mind and phenomena. This issue is therefore far deeper than you seem to realize. Your constant railing against thought is indicative of a view that needs quite a bit of refinement, mostly because it will cause you to conflate mere clarity with jñāna, or prajñā as you mention directly above. A major error.

As others have mentioned, these discussions are an opportunity for you to learn, hopefully that isn’t completely squandered.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Jules 09 »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:55 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:47 pm - Please could you give a reference to the text and page numbers these citations are from?
Oh sorry, the other one is from "Practice of Dzogchen" page 377ff.
- Doesn't seem to be on p.377 on the copy I have (1996 edition).
Which chapter is it in?
Thanks.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by conebeckham »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 am
It is said that when the expression (display) dawns as sherab, as knowledge - when the expression knows its own nature - it is liberated, there is freedom. When the expression moves as thought, as thinking, it is bewildered - there is delusion.
In this distinction lies the whole difference.

In other words, whether the expression is liberated as knowledge (sherab) or confused as thinking is determined by the practitioner knowing or not knowing his or her own nature. In the essence (ngo bo) itself, there is no difference, it's not improved by recognizing or made worse by not recognizing.

When the expression moves as knowledge, it is liberated. When the expression moves as thought, it is deluded.

This is what makes the whole difference. To be a normal sentient being (sem chan, possessor of mind) is to never recognize the nature of this expression.
Thoughts themselves are the display, and they provide an opportunity for self-recognition. If one does not recognize the nature of the thought as it arises, one is confused. If one recognizes the nature of the display, the nature of thought, there is knowledge of the basis and liberation. Therefore, we can say that thoughts are useful opportunities!
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Jules 09
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Jules 09 »

conebeckham wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:05 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 am
It is said that when the expression (display) dawns as sherab, as knowledge - when the expression knows its own nature - it is liberated, there is freedom. When the expression moves as thought, as thinking, it is bewildered - there is delusion.
In this distinction lies the whole difference.

In other words, whether the expression is liberated as knowledge (sherab) or confused as thinking is determined by the practitioner knowing or not knowing his or her own nature. In the essence (ngo bo) itself, there is no difference, it's not improved by recognizing or made worse by not recognizing.

When the expression moves as knowledge, it is liberated. When the expression moves as thought, it is deluded.

This is what makes the whole difference. To be a normal sentient being (sem chan, possessor of mind) is to never recognize the nature of this expression.
Thoughts themselves are the display, and they provide an opportunity for self-recognition. If one does not recognize the nature of the thought as it arises, one is confused. If one recognizes the nature of the display, the nature of thought, there is knowledge of the basis and liberation. Therefore, we can say that thoughts are useful opportunities!
- Yes, I agree. And we all have them. Equal opportunities! :smile:

Having said that, I am sure you would agree that the general idea is to rest naturally, without grasping, in the recognition of the essence, dharmakaya.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by bryandavis »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:13 pm
bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm

Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.

To understand this precisely one needs to understand the triune pristine consciousness of the basis as well as the triune ignorance which can obscure the conscious aspect of basis. This is all explained pretty clearly in Buddhahood in This Life in topic 1 and 2. I detail the precise progression of the usage of terms in the text, which begins with defining one’s unmodified consciousness as the basis. The distinction between the basis and its conscious aspect may be found briefly described on pp 94-95 of Tantra Without Syllables.
This is the presintstion that I am familiar with. One you have pointed out before. I will reference Buddhahood and and TWS.. thank you. This is also how Samantabhadra prayer expounds the topic.

Didn't really need berzins geluk interpretation. Lol
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by futerko »

bryandavis wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:13 pm
bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm

I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.

To understand this precisely one needs to understand the triune pristine consciousness of the basis as well as the triune ignorance which can obscure the conscious aspect of basis. This is all explained pretty clearly in Buddhahood in This Life in topic 1 and 2. I detail the precise progression of the usage of terms in the text, which begins with defining one’s unmodified consciousness as the basis. The distinction between the basis and its conscious aspect may be found briefly described on pp 94-95 of Tantra Without Syllables.
This is the presintstion that I am familiar with. One you have pointed out before. I will reference Buddhahood and and TWS.. thank you. This is also how Samantabhadra prayer expounds the topic.

Didn't really need berzins geluk interpretation. Lol
yeah you did - do you find Gelug explanations irksome?

isn't pontificating on the mundane part of the whole display?

I did a couple of week long retreats with Jim Valby and he was crystal clear about why Dzogchen was heretical to the Gelug.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by bryandavis »

futerko wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:57 pm
bryandavis wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:13 pm

(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.

To understand this precisely one needs to understand the triune pristine consciousness of the basis as well as the triune ignorance which can obscure the conscious aspect of basis. This is all explained pretty clearly in Buddhahood in This Life in topic 1 and 2. I detail the precise progression of the usage of terms in the text, which begins with defining one’s unmodified consciousness as the basis. The distinction between the basis and its conscious aspect may be found briefly described on pp 94-95 of Tantra Without Syllables.
This is the presintstion that I am familiar with. One you have pointed out before. I will reference Buddhahood and and TWS.. thank you. This is also how Samantabhadra prayer expounds the topic.

Didn't really need berzins geluk interpretation. Lol
yeah you did - do you find Gelug explanations irksome?

isn't pontificating on the mundane part of the whole display?

I did a couple of week long retreats with Jim Valby and he was crystal clear about why Dzogchen was heretical to the Gelug.

Not so much irksome, more not inline terminology wise with the presentations of the systems I use as guides. Also I have no real exposure to geluk systems nor do I have any inclination in that direction.

I don't pontificate much.

Those retreats sounds nice.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by futerko »

bryandavis wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:43 pm
I don't pontificate much.
I didn't mean not you - clearly there is a consistency between view and conduct here.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:50 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:13 pm In the now locked thread, Malcolm mentioned that rigpa is actually subcategorized by trekcho and thogal and that the inseparability of kadak and lhundrub actually corresponds to thogal.

What does trekcho correspond to in this case? It's interesting since trekcho instructions also contain numerous introductions to this inseparability and sustaining of its recognition via the Four Chogzhags or the Nine sets of Three relaxations so it seemed like both had the same rigpa and result.
Kadag and lhundrup are inseparable in both cases. The distinction is whether one is resting for a moment directly in the radiance (mdangs) of rigpa in the context of impure appearances without the famous postures and gazes or pure appearances with them.

The four chogzhags are practiced in both. Simply put, the distinction between the two is impure or pure appearances as the path, leading to slightly different results (dematerialization or great transference).
Thank you, clearly explained. So it's just a matter of what appearances one chooses to work with

Mr. Meseeks wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:12 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:13 pm In the now locked thread, Malcolm mentioned that rigpa is actually subcategorized by trekcho and thogal and that the inseparability of kadak and lhundrub actually corresponds to thogal.

What does trekcho correspond to in this case? It's interesting since trekcho instructions also contain numerous introductions to this inseparability and sustaining of its recognition via the Four Chogzhags or the Nine sets of Three relaxations so it seemed like both had the same rigpa and result.
It's better to understand kadag and lhundrub as inseparable nature and Tregcho and togal as paths.
Indeed.

futerko wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:43 am
bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm

I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
Yes, Berzin's descriptions have an obvious Gelug slant.

The 21 Nails couches the three somewhat differently;

1 - khyabrig, all pervading awareness
2 - samrig (bsam rig), consciousness-awareness.
3 - yerig, primordial-awareness
Thanks for that. I am more familiar with the 21 Nails so this is a very helpful comparison
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:13 pm
bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm

Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.
Hence the reason and argument for why buddhahood for the lower yanas are reversible.

If Gelugpas accept this, they will also need to acknowledge and account for the possibility of Tsongkhapa's buddhahood being reversible. Hence their need to reinterpretate the dzogchen terminologies and synchronise them with their existing philosophical framework to demonstrate that all different systems in the four schools will eventually lead to the same conclusion.

We also observed their similar attempts at synchronising kalachakra and others.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by futerko »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:59 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:13 pm
bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm

I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.
Hence the reason and argument for why buddhahood for the lower yanas are reversible.

If Gelugpas accept this, they will also need to acknowledge and account for the possibility of Tsongkhapa's buddhahood being reversible. Hence their need to reinterpretate the dzogchen terminologies and synchronise them with their existing philosophical framework to demonstrate that all different systems in the four schools will eventually lead to the same conclusion.

We also observed their similar attempts at synchronising kalachakra and others.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by ThreeVows »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:57 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:55 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:47 pm - Please could you give a reference to the text and page numbers these citations are from?
Oh sorry, the other one is from "Practice of Dzogchen" page 377ff.
- Doesn't seem to be on p.377 on the copy I have (1996 edition).
Which chapter is it in?
Thanks.
Oh actually I just googled it and found this - https://books.google.com/books?id=09rIB ... e.&f=false
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Jules 09 »

Seeker12 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:22 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:57 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:55 pm
Oh sorry, the other one is from "Practice of Dzogchen" page 377ff.
- Doesn't seem to be on p.377 on the copy I have (1996 edition).
Which chapter is it in?
Thanks.
Oh actually I just googled it and found this - https://books.google.com/books?id=09rIB ... e.&f=false
Chapter 11, pages 402-3.

Thanks
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by muni »

"We cannot stop thoughts, however we try. We have to learn to let our pure innate awareness come to self-recognition to thoroughly sense its own empty cognizant and limitless nature and to stabilize in that, then the energies of self centered thoughts and emotions can be freed, to take expressions as enlightened attitudes and activities of compassion.

Nonconceptual meditation is an intuitive knowing not delimited by conceptual patterns of thought, innate pure awareness itself is what does the knowing.

Conceptual practices are special forms of thought, image and attitude to harmonize us with the minds' infinite nature by evoking its innate enlightened qualities such as boundless love, compassion, joy, boundless love, tranquility, equanimity."

Awakening Through Love: Unveiling Your Deepest Goodness. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

I am posting this as a kind of strong reminder for myself!
May it be of any help or inspiration. :namaste:
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:31 pm Elucidation of the distinction between rigpa (naked awareness) and gnas pa (shine, calm abiding):
And you have been taught this text?
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Meta-discussion removed.

Let's try again.

:thanks:
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by muni »

Homage to the Masters!!!

"Rigpa is said to be like a mirror, in the sense that it doesn't have to move towards and apprehend objects in order to understand, that is the function of the conceptual mind, Sem. Sem reaches out, forms labels based on characteristics and gets involved in the field of experience.

Rigpa does not reach out and apprehend; it simply allows the reflections to appear as if on the surface of the mirror. That is a huge difference.

Rigpa has a certain capacity. Capacity here means the basis, the venue or the medium for unobstructed arising, for unblocked experience. It is not the arising itself. When it becomes the arising itself, which is then the apprehended, that is what is called thinking.

Capacity is simple the medium or basis for experience to take place. That is not the same as when experience actually occurs and is labeled as such-and-such. That is called conceptual mind or thinking." Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

Perhaps this clarifies the saying "be the sky and not the clouds while the sky reject or accepts nothing". But saying this is easy, very easy..
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

muni wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:01 am
Perhaps this clarifies the saying "be the sky and not the clouds while the sky reject or accepts nothing". But saying this is easy, very easy..
Sure, sounds easy, but not so easy.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ok, we seem to have hit a good point to close the thread, as the OP is no longer being discussed. As always, if people have some specific reason for keeping the thread open, you can PM me.
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