Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

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laic
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

Hi there, I picked that out from your quote, and relating it to seeking to speak from experience.

Yes, very stressful at times. There is a great song written by Robbie Robertson, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" (it relates to the American civil war) and there is the line:-

"Just take what you need and leave the rest"

Which can seem like good advice, yet often it's difficult to truly know exactly what we need. The Pure Land way is in essence against "calculation" (hakarai), of any overt attempt to plot our course, more seeking to rest in Other Power (tariki)

The "Vow" takes care of everything yet in a certain sense this can be compared to the Question that Dogen first asked in his quest to find his own path, time and place.....i.e. given the Mahayana teaching of "Original Enlightenment" then why did all the great masters "practice" and study the sutra's? What exactly is the nature of "practice" when it is more a question of realisation than "attainment"?

Pure Land is more that the entire everyday world is our dogo. Trust/faith can find its support in the most unlikely of places. Gratitude for those acknowledged "supports" becomes ubiquitous, gratitude even amongst the apparently adverse moments. Non-discrimination. Namu-amida-butsu!
Protecting oneself one protects others
Protecting others one protects oneself
muni
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by muni »

laic wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:01 pm
muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

Hi there, I picked that out from your quote, and relating it to seeking to speak from experience.

Yes, very stressful at times. There is a great song written by Robbie Robertson, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" (it relates to the American civil war) and there is the line:-

"Just take what you need and leave the rest"

Which can seem like good advice, yet often it's difficult to truly know exactly what we need. The Pure Land way is in essence against "calculation" (hakarai), of any overt attempt to plot our course, more seeking to rest in Other Power (tariki)

The "Vow" takes care of everything yet in a certain sense this can be compared to the Question that Dogen first asked in his quest to find his own path, time and place.....i.e. given the Mahayana teaching of "Original Enlightenment" then why did all the great masters "practice" and study the sutra's? What exactly is the nature of "practice" when it is more a question of realisation than "attainment"?

Pure Land is more that the entire everyday world is our dogo. Trust/faith can find its support in the most unlikely of places. Gratitude for those acknowledged "supports" becomes ubiquitous, gratitude even amongst the apparently adverse moments. Non-discrimination. Namu-amida-butsu!
You writes: "then why did all the great masters "practice" and study the sutra's? What exactly is the nature of "practice" when it is more a question of realisation than "attainment"?

I heard once, because of our elaborating habitual mind we need something of same nature to awaken.

There are different kind of teachings, to wake up all beings, all without any discrimination. Sutra and other texts have their value very much as they are all pointing to what need to be understood. This understanding of course is not the words themselves but to what they are pointing to. There all kind of complexities some more complex than others, all are needed, but finally we have to come down to the simplicity of nature, like it is/was already before the elaborating "about" mind jumped up.

Non-discrimination. Indeed. Namu-amida-butsu!
Parsifal
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:12 pm
laic wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:01 pm
muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:27 am In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

Hi there, I picked that out from your quote, and relating it to seeking to speak from experience.

Yes, very stressful at times. There is a great song written by Robbie Robertson, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" (it relates to the American civil war) and there is the line:-

"Just take what you need and leave the rest"

Which can seem like good advice, yet often it's difficult to truly know exactly what we need. The Pure Land way is in essence against "calculation" (hakarai), of any overt attempt to plot our course, more seeking to rest in Other Power (tariki)

The "Vow" takes care of everything yet in a certain sense this can be compared to the Question that Dogen first asked in his quest to find his own path, time and place.....i.e. given the Mahayana teaching of "Original Enlightenment" then why did all the great masters "practice" and study the sutra's? What exactly is the nature of "practice" when it is more a question of realisation than "attainment"?

Pure Land is more that the entire everyday world is our dogo. Trust/faith can find its support in the most unlikely of places. Gratitude for those acknowledged "supports" becomes ubiquitous, gratitude even amongst the apparently adverse moments. Non-discrimination. Namu-amida-butsu!
You writes: "then why did all the great masters "practice" and study the sutra's? What exactly is the nature of "practice" when it is more a question of realisation than "attainment"?

I heard once, because of our elaborating habitual mind we need something of same nature to awaken.

There are different kind of teachings, to wake up all beings, all without any discrimination. Sutra and other texts have their value very much as they are all pointing to what need to be understood. This understanding of course is not the words themselves but to what they are pointing to. There all kind of complexities some more complex than others, all are needed, but finally we have to come down to the simplicity of nature, like it is/was already before the elaborating "about" mind jumped up.

Non-discrimination. Indeed. Namu-amida-butsu!
Sorry for keeping refraining from joining the discussion for a while due to being puzzled somewhat with the matters were discussed. Even now I think it not possible to have wholly come to understand yet what both of you talked about.

The reason for this is likely to come from differences in both a manner or habit of thinking and language. I think it usually difficult to understand an abstract object even in the same language.

Under this forum, I exchanged a lot of views about Zen vs Pure Land with other members and I came to notice there being no more a substantial difference each other in the world as whole except Japan where Shin occupies a majority of whole of Pure Land. This result still matters to me so much, but I cannot but admit it.

From now on, I would rather listen to others' opinion about this theme and learn more about how different peoples think about wider range of Buddhism themes.
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laic
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:26 am
muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:12 pm

There are different kind of teachings, to wake up all beings, all without any discrimination.
The reason for this is likely to come from differences in both a manner or habit of thinking and language.

From now on, I would rather listen to others' opinion about this theme and learn more about how different peoples think about wider range of Buddhism themes.

This all relates to the "universalism" of the Dharma, to the very nature of Reality-as-is, in keeping with many Buddhist sutta's/sutra's........


The Lord speaks with but one voice, but all beings, each according to their kind, gain understanding, each thinking that the Lord speaks their own language. This is a special quality of the Buddha. The Lord speaks with but one voice, but all beings, each according to their own ability, act upon it, and each derives the appropriate benefit. This is a special quality of the Buddha.

(Vimalakirti Sutra)




Just as the nature of the earth is one

While beings each live separately,

And the earth has no thought of oneness or difference,

So is the truth of all Buddhas.



Just as the ocean is one

With millions of different waves,

Yet the water is no different:

So is the truth of all Buddhas.



Just as the element earth, while one,

Can produce various sprouts,

Yet it's not that the earth is diverse:

So is the truth of all Buddhas.


(Hua-Yen Sutra)



I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world,

like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere.

Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior,

observers of precepts, violators of precepts,

those fully endowed with proper demeanor,

those not fully endowed,

those of correct views, of erroneous views,

of keen capacity, of dull capacity -

I cause the Dharma rain to rain on all equally,

never lax or neglectful.

When all the various living beings

hear my Law,

they receive it according to their power,

dwelling in their different environments.....

..The Law of the Buddhas

is constantly of a single flavour,

causing the many worlds

to attain full satisfaction everywhere;

by practicing gradually and stage by stage,

all beings can gain the fruits of the way.


(The Lotus Sutra, Parable of the Dharma Rain)
Protecting oneself one protects others
Protecting others one protects oneself
muni
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by muni »

From now on, I would rather listen to others' opinion about this theme and learn more about how different peoples think about wider range of Buddhism themes.
Sakya Pandita said: wise learn from all, fools only from themselves.

In the Tibetan tradition is there a teaching saying be like a bee, and learn from all. A guiding Wisdom-Compassion/Master is keeping an eye on this.

I would say since the variety of minds, whatever is helpful, be it rituals, mantra, meditation, koan, contemplation, terma, devotion-blessings, faith, complex studies or less complex, since all are to awaken, none of them can be seen as less then jewels.

All the best.
Parsifal
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »


This all relates to the "universalism" of the Dharma, to the very nature of Reality-as-is, in keeping with many Buddhist sutta's/sutra's........
While we repeatedly had a series of discussions, I intuitively noticed that what you mentioned about Pure Land might have something to do with religious deeds of Ippen Holy Master of Jishu, called as literally translated into "Time Sect", one of Japanese Pure Land lineages. Do you know his name? He was born a few decades after Shinran's death and he walked around across almost entire Japan by distributing paper cards written "Nam Ami Dabutsu". He is also known as Sute-hijiri, a holy monk having abandoned all his belongings and he danced around with his followers in ecstasy with chanting Nam Ami Dabtsu. He is thought to be an absolute monk having embodied nothingness except Amidah Buddha. If you are interested in Ippen, I would seek something available for English users.
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