Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

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Parsifal
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:38 am
Parsifal wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:46 am
Kai lord wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:47 pm Chan vs Pure land?

Well the most popular argument I have seen the Chan people rise is along the line of "Whats with the need to pray for rebirth into Amitabha's pure land when you can simply train to view Saha world as the Pure land? "

Of course this does not dent the Pure landers' faith a bit as they simply humbly admit that the level of cultivation is too far beyond their current capacity and then continue with their daily recitation, so no big debate or fight came out of it much to the disappointment of some Zen lovers. :rolling:
What an ironical opinion you have! If even an ordinary people in addition to Chan believer could view Saha as Pure Land, no religion must get unnecessary.
Thats the whole point since ordinary people can't do that, hence they must train hard.
Does "the level of cultivation is too far beyond" mean that true faith to Amitabha itself is too hard for Pure Landers to keep retaining actually?
No, you got it the other way around. That level of cultivation refers to Zen's proposal of training to view this Saha universe as Pure.
As well, why are Zen lovers disappointed with it?
Don't know, maybe you should ask them in person if you ever got the opportunity. :tongue:
I cannot wholly understand well what you meant. However, as far as I actually experienced till now, I am sure what is the most difficult task for everyone to keep retaining daily practice is to believe in a god or a Buddha sincerely. Especially, for Pure Land believers, to believe is not only beginning but also finishing, as a lot of Shin teachers are teaching. I remember one of famous Buddhism scholar once said, chanting Nam-Amitabha is the same as doing Zazen via mouth.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Kai lord »

Parsifal wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:24 am I cannot wholly understand well what you meant.
My point is simple. Most pure land practitioners are simple folks that see little in intellectual debate, they rather use that time to chant one mala of Amitabha name or mantra. When you get to know them more in person, you will know what I mean.
However, as far as I actually experienced till now, I am sure what is the most difficult task for everyone to keep retaining daily practice is to believe in a god or a Buddha sincerely.
You should visit Asia more, especially India, there are literally millions of them doing that everyday in various religions. They have no problem in putting their full faith into their deities. Even the Muslims do that consistently.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Thanks to all. I have bookmarked this thread.

Way back - I think on the Tricycle Forums before they were pulled - there was a guy very genned up on Pure Land/zen/mahayana and the historical evolution of Buddhism in its heartlands. He took great issue with Sangarakshita's views given in his "Survey of Buddhism" that declared that Pure Land was some sort of Dharma reduced to its "emotional" expression.

Anyway, whatever, good stuff here.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

laic wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:35 pm Thanks to all. I have bookmarked this thread.

Way back - I think on the Tricycle Forums before they were pulled - there was a guy very genned up on Pure Land/zen/mahayana and the historical evolution of Buddhism in its heartlands. He took great issue with Sangarakshita's views given in his "Survey of Buddhism" that declared that Pure Land was some sort of Dharma reduced to its "emotional" expression.

Anyway, whatever, good stuff here.
I heard the name of Sangarakshita for the first time so I do not know anything about "Survey of Buddhism" at all quite naturally. Perhaps his name is not known in Japan and no book probably available, too. Nonetheless, it is quite interesting and difficult idea about "Pure Land was some sort of Dharma reduced to its "emotional" expression.", indeed. If possible, could you add some more explanations to help me understand even a little bit more in addition to what do you think about the guy's idea?
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:42 am
laic wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:35 pm Thanks to all. I have bookmarked this thread.

Way back - I think on the Tricycle Forums before they were pulled - there was a guy very genned up on Pure Land/zen/mahayana and the historical evolution of Buddhism in its heartlands. He took great issue with Sangarakshita's views given in his "Survey of Buddhism" that declared that Pure Land was some sort of Dharma reduced to its "emotional" expression.

Anyway, whatever, good stuff here.
I heard the name of Sangarakshita for the first time so I do not know anything about "Survey of Buddhism" at all quite naturally. Perhaps his name is not known in Japan and no book probably available, too. Nonetheless, it is quite interesting and difficult idea about "Pure Land was some sort of Dharma reduced to its "emotional" expression.", indeed. If possible, could you add some more explanations to help me understand even a little bit more in addition to what do you think about the guy's idea?
Hi, the book "A Survey of Buddhism" is quite well known in my part of the world, it even pops up in Waterstones (a fairly general book chain) Sangarakshita was an English guy, Dennis Lingwood, who founded the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order in 1967, now known as the Triratna Community.

Looking up a few passages from the book, the Pure Land section concludes by saying:-

Not only must faith be balanced by wisdom, and concentration by vigour, in the spiritual life of the individual Buddhist, but in the Dharma as a whole equilibrium must be maintained between the traditions corresponding to these four faculties. According to Nāgārjuna the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth. Without accepting this point of view the Jōdo Shin Shū can hardly avoid drawing the conclusion that Buddhism, whether regarded as a doctrine, a method, or an institution, is superfluous. If reliance on the Other Power in reality excludes reliance on our own efforts, religion as a distinctive way of life, together with all distinctively religious acts, founders, and we are at once engulfed by the ocean of worldliness.

Therefore Sagarakshita would appear to suggest that the Pure Land school is divorced from what could be termed "Buddhist wisdom" and is reliant upon faith only, and is lacking in what could be called "effort". As I see it, and have come to know it, this is simply wrong.

The relationship between self power and other power is a constant theme, jiriki and tariki. Neither one nor the other is exclusive.

Thank you for your interest.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

A lot can be said, thought or disputed regarding the words quoted in my previous post from "A Survey of Buddhism", but taking....

According to Nāgārjuna the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth.

.....I think of the words of the Buddha, close to his own parinirvana, when being asked to appoint a new leader/teacher. He spoke of allowing the Dharma to be our guide, to be "lamps unto yourselves". In the light of the central, unique teaching of anatta, not-self, it must be asked as to exactly what "self" should be our lamp. Which is where the two truths, or absolute and relative, come in.

As I understand it, all the various paths of Dharma revolve around how we approach this, and this is where the Pali word ehipassiko comes in..... "Come and see (for oneself)"

Pure Land is no different from any other Buddhist path in this respect and as I see it, Sangarakshita is wrong in suggesting otherwise.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

laic wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:32 am A lot can be said, thought or disputed regarding the words quoted in my previous post from "A Survey of Buddhism", but taking....

According to Nāgārjuna the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth.

.....I think of the words of the Buddha, close to his own parinirvana, when being asked to appoint a new leader/teacher. He spoke of allowing the Dharma to be our guide, to be "lamps unto yourselves". In the light of the central, unique teaching of anatta, not-self, it must be asked as to exactly what "self" should be our lamp. Which is where the two truths, or absolute and relative, come in.

As I understand it, all the various paths of Dharma revolve around how we approach this, and this is where the Pali word ehipassiko comes in..... "Come and see (for oneself)"

Pure Land is no different from any other Buddhist path in this respect and as I see it, Sangarakshita is wrong in suggesting otherwise.
Thank you very much for your showing me your perspective about Pure Land Shin which is, frankly speaking, too difficult for me to understand unfortunately. I have just finished taking a glance at Wikipedia referring to Sangharakshita in outline. As one of Shin semi-Buddhist, I would like to learn more about its essence viewing from not only Japanese Shin but also outside of Japan at the same time with helps from other people like you from now on. Since there are too a lot that I cannot understand what you meant, first of all, I like to ask you the discourse about Nagarjuna's " the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth" you cited. Could you paraphrase this message to another plain one to this extent even people having insufficient knowledge about this kind of logics can understand?

Even though I cannot say any definitive comment until after having your explanation, I intuitively noticed what you meant has possibly something to do with a discourse represented by one of Japanese famous Pure Land master, Bennei Yamazaki. For your reference, I hereby paste URL relevent to the master monk Yamazaki. https://www.yamazakibennei-museum.com/b ... anami.html
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:30 am first of all, I like to ask you the discourse about Nagarjuna's " the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth" you cited. Could you paraphrase this message to another plain one to this extent even people having insufficient knowledge about this kind of logics can understand?


I can only speak from my own understanding and perspective. I have many troubles of my own and I genuinely do think that we can all learn from each other. Out of place perhaps, but the Christian Bible says that eventually "a little child shall lead them". Everything is simple but once we begin to think and calculate it can all become a tangle as we wonder what direction to take, what thoughts are "right" to think, who to listen to next.

Pure Land is simply to "let go" and trust that everything is fine just as it is. Amida takes the burden. Other Power.

Yet the reality is that most of us experience "self power", or at least, what we see as our own efforts, efforts to understand, to plot our way forward, with a general dissatisfaction with how things actually are.

And so, in Shinjin, we need do nothing, yet we cannot do nothing. The paradox of every path.

That, as I see it, is the background to the words of Nagarjuna, that:-

the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth.

.....at least, the Pure Land background, in context with my two previous posts. There is a fundamental inter-relationship between "self power" and "other power".

The Pure Land myokonin Saichi wrote in his Journals:-

O Saichi! Will you tell us of Other power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.


I have found that Faith/Trust is everything. I know that many see Shinjin as some sort of "all or nothing" (do I "have it" or not....) but I experience more a gradual surrender to the grace and love that is the fundamental ground of Reality-as-is, in which we live and move and have our being. The road goes on, some say that the journey itself is home.

PS Sorry, your PDF ref was in a Chinese script.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

[/quote]


I can only speak from my own understanding and perspective. I have many troubles of my own and I genuinely do think that we can all learn from each other. Out of place perhaps, but the Christian Bible says that eventually "a little child shall lead them". Everything is simple but once we begin to think and calculate it can all become a tangle as we wonder what direction to take, what thoughts are "right" to think, who to listen to next.

Pure Land is simply to "let go" and trust that everything is fine just as it is. Amida takes the burden. Other Power.

Yet the reality is that most of us experience "self power", or at least, what we see as our own efforts, efforts to understand, to plot our way forward, with a general dissatisfaction with how things actually are.

And so, in Shinjin, we need do nothing, yet we cannot do nothing. The paradox of every path.

That, as I see it, is the background to the words of Nagarjuna, that:-

the absolute truth is not to be realized except in dependence on the relative truth.

.....at least, the Pure Land background, in context with my two previous posts. There is a fundamental inter-relationship between "self power" and "other power".

The Pure Land myokonin Saichi wrote in his Journals:-

O Saichi! Will you tell us of Other power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.


I have found that Faith/Trust is everything. I know that many see Shinjin as some sort of "all or nothing" (do I "have it" or not....) but I experience more a gradual surrender to the grace and love that is the fundamental ground of Reality-as-is, in which we live and move and have our being. The road goes on, some say that the journey itself is home.

PS Sorry, your PDF ref was in a Chinese script.

[/quote]
I am sorry for not getting able to understand what you mean about the relationship between Nagarjuna's absolute truth and relative truth yet. Judging from your citing Saichi's phrase, you possibly seemed to say there was nothing but graceful (grateful) acceptance in the mind of people having faithful Amidah. This is just my guess.

If my guess based on some discourses about "as it is naturally" by Shinran greatly affected by Zhuangzi is correct, it is not necessarily impossible to imagine what you try to mean with your metaphor to some extent. However, looking back to not a few talks with other members about yhis theme, it is true for me to gradually get recognizing both self-power and othe-power could coexist naturally to some extent.

The PDF I sent you was Japanese version and I thought it possible for you to read it by means of Google Translator or something like its equivalent even written in Japanese characters.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:25 am
I am sorry for not getting able to understand what you mean about the relationship between Nagarjuna's absolute truth and relative truth yet. Judging from your citing Saichi's phrase, you possibly seemed to say there was nothing but graceful (grateful) acceptance in the mind of people having faithful Amidah. This is just my guess.

If my guess based on some discourses about "as it is naturally" by Shinran greatly affected by Zhuangzi is correct, it is not necessarily impossible to imagine what you try to mean with your metaphor to some extent. However, looking back to not a few talks with other members about yhis theme, it is true for me to gradually get recognizing both self-power and othe-power could coexist naturally to some extent.

The PDF I sent you was Japanese version and I thought it possible for you to read it by means of Google Translator or something like its equivalent even written in Japanese characters.
Hello again, morning here!

Sorry about the PDF, yes Google Translate deals with it fine. The text seems interesting and I shall look closely at it later.

As I said, I try to speak from my own experience and understanding. I'm sorry if it comes across as obscure and difficult to understand.

Mentioning non-duality may well make it more obscure ( :smile: ) nevertheless, this is that All, Reality-as-is, is not two, not that "all is One". A significant difference. Everything is relationship, yet is not two. I'm sorry if such is obscure, yet I am simply trying to speak out of my own experience.

All Dharma teachers speak out of the Two Truths (conventional and absolute, absolute and relative) and Dogen - from the Soto Zen perspective - speaks of our need to realize non-duality within duality.

How we relate the two is our path, our journey. The Pure Land path, the "easy path" ("though few there be who walk it") is one of surrender, letting go of calculation, of gaining trust in the Absolute working of Other Power.

As you say it "is true for me to gradually get recognizing both self-power and other-power could coexist naturally to some extent".

And as Saichi says, "their is neither self-power nor Other Power" (as totally distinct entities), but only the "Graceful Acceptance".

We experience separation nevertheless. From the theistic side, Thomas Merton says:- "We already possess God by grace, yet how far do I have to go to find you in Whom I have already arrived!"

And St John of the Cross:-

On that glad night in secret,
for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
— him I knew so well —
there in a place where no one appeared.



Sorry, I'm really a very simple guy. Nothing to teach. We are all on the path and can only support each other.
Protecting oneself one protects others
Protecting others one protects oneself
Parsifal
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

laic wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:26 am
Parsifal wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:25 am
I am sorry for not getting able to understand what you mean about the relationship between Nagarjuna's absolute truth and relative truth yet. Judging from your citing Saichi's phrase, you possibly seemed to say there was nothing but graceful (grateful) acceptance in the mind of people having faithful Amidah. This is just my guess.

If my guess based on some discourses about "as it is naturally" by Shinran greatly affected by Zhuangzi is correct, it is not necessarily impossible to imagine what you try to mean with your metaphor to some extent. However, looking back to not a few talks with other members about yhis theme, it is true for me to gradually get recognizing both self-power and othe-power could coexist naturally to some extent.

The PDF I sent you was Japanese version and I thought it possible for you to read it by means of Google Translator or something like its equivalent even written in Japanese characters.
Hello again, morning here!

Sorry about the PDF, yes Google Translate deals with it fine. The text seems interesting and I shall look closely at it later.

As I said, I try to speak from my own experience and understanding. I'm sorry if it comes across as obscure and difficult to understand.

Mentioning non-duality may well make it more obscure ( :smile: ) nevertheless, this is that All, Reality-as-is, is not two, not that "all is One". A significant difference. Everything is relationship, yet is not two. I'm sorry if such is obscure, yet I am simply trying to speak out of my own experience.

After a couple of days having passed, I suddenly came to feel like getting something like an inspiration to tell me what you meant. I do not know why, nevertheless. Daring to say if any, one of the member told me information relevant to Three Wheels in UK, and I took an interest in it and then I bought D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Shin". Due to this by chance, I might have noticed even only part of your messages. While I liked to hear from you sometime, was you affected by D. T. Suzuki more or less? This is just my intuition, sorry for stepping into your personal affairs.

You may know, we Japanese are poor at understanding logical discourese in addition to a language barrier. Furthermore, while I have read Suzuki's "Pure Land Lineage Thought" in Japanese not so long ago, it was too difficult for me to finish reading it up and gave up on a halfway due to quite unlogical, intuitive and discrete. It is funny but true, his book translated by Taira Satoh is rather easier to understand somehow.
Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic". Anyway, please keep patient with my lack of skill as to logics and language.

All Dharma teachers speak out of the Two Truths (conventional and absolute, absolute and relative) and Dogen - from the Soto Zen perspective - speaks of our need to realize non-duality within duality.

How we relate the two is our path, our journey. The Pure Land path, the "easy path" ("though few there be who walk it") is one of surrender, letting go of calculation, of gaining trust in the Absolute working of Other Power.

As you say it "is true for me to gradually get recognizing both self-power and other-power could coexist naturally to some extent".

And as Saichi says, "their is neither self-power nor Other Power" (as totally distinct entities), but only the "Graceful Acceptance".

We experience separation nevertheless. From the theistic side, Thomas Merton says:- "We already possess God by grace, yet how far do I have to go to find you in Whom I have already arrived!"

And St John of the Cross:-

On that glad night in secret,
for no one saw me,
nor did I look at anything
with no other light or guide
than the one that burned in my heart.

This guided me
more surely than the light of noon
to where he was awaiting me
— him I knew so well —
there in a place where no one appeared.



Sorry, I'm really a very simple guy. Nothing to teach. We are all on the path and can only support each other.
After a couple of days having passed, I suddenly came to feel like getting something like an inspiration to tell me what you meant. I do not know why, nevertheless. Daring to say if any, one of the member told me information relevant to Three Wheels in UK, and I took an interest in it and then I bought D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Shin". Due to this by chance, I might have noticed even only part of your messages. While I liked to hear from you sometime, was you affected by D. T. Suzuki more or less? This is just my intuition, sorry for stepping into your personal affairs.

You may know, we Japanese are poor at understanding logical discourese in addition to a language barrier. Furthermore, while I have read Suzuki's "Pure Land Lineage Thought" in Japanese not so long ago, it was too difficult for me to finish reading it up and gave up on a halfway due to quite unlogical, intuitive and discrete. It is funny but true, his book translated by Taira Satoh is rather easier to understand somehow.
Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic". Anyway, please keep patient with my lack of skill as to logics and language.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:54 am
After a couple of days having passed, I suddenly came to feel like getting something like an inspiration to tell me what you meant. I do not know why, nevertheless. Daring to say if any, one of the member told me information relevant to Three Wheels in UK, and I took an interest in it and then I bought D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Shin". Due to this by chance, I might have noticed even only part of your messages. While I liked to hear from you sometime, was you affected by D. T. Suzuki more or less? This is just my intuition, sorry for stepping into your personal affairs.

You may know, we Japanese are poor at understanding logical discourese in addition to a language barrier. Furthermore, while I have read Suzuki's "Pure Land Lineage Thought" in Japanese not so long ago, it was too difficult for me to finish reading it up and gave up on a halfway due to quite unlogical, intuitive and discrete. It is funny but true, his book translated by Taira Satoh is rather easier to understand somehow.
Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic". Anyway, please keep patient with my lack of skill as to logics and language.
Hello again. I think all have some sort of intuitive logic, and as I understand it, there is often a difference between cultures. I have a "Sourcebook" of Japanese Philosophy where the main difference is explained. Anyway, this can be a barrier. And as you say, language itself can also be a barrier. I only know and speak English. Sorry.

Yes, among others, D T Suzuki has been an influence. Both zen and Pure Land. His mother was Shin and he wrote on both, seemingly being more drawn to Shin in his older years as he himself integrated both expressions of the Dharma in his own life.

I have Suzuki's "Buddha of Infinite Light" and also his "Mysticism:Buddhist and Christian", plus a few other writings. His exchange in dialogue with Thomas Merton "Wisdom in Emptiness", contained in Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite", has been a major influence.

At some time I might find somewhere to open a thread on how the "Sourcebook" I have explains the main difference between the two logics of "east" and "west", which is very interesting.

I know of the "Three Wheels" in London but have never visited.

Thank you.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

laic wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:12 am
Parsifal wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:54 am
After a couple of days having passed, I suddenly came to feel like getting something like an inspiration to tell me what you meant. I do not know why, nevertheless. Daring to say if any, one of the member told me information relevant to Three Wheels in UK, and I took an interest in it and then I bought D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Shin". Due to this by chance, I might have noticed even only part of your messages. While I liked to hear from you sometime, was you affected by D. T. Suzuki more or less? This is just my intuition, sorry for stepping into your personal affairs.

You may know, we Japanese are poor at understanding logical discourese in addition to a language barrier. Furthermore, while I have read Suzuki's "Pure Land Lineage Thought" in Japanese not so long ago, it was too difficult for me to finish reading it up and gave up on a halfway due to quite unlogical, intuitive and discrete. It is funny but true, his book translated by Taira Satoh is rather easier to understand somehow.
Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic". Anyway, please keep patient with my lack of skill as to logics and language.
Hello again. I think all have some sort of intuitive logic, and as I understand it, there is often a difference between cultures. I have a "Sourcebook" of Japanese Philosophy where the main difference is explained. Anyway, this can be a barrier. And as you say, language itself can also be a barrier. I only know and speak English. Sorry.

Yes, among others, D T Suzuki has been an influence. Both zen and Pure Land. His mother was Shin and he wrote on both, seemingly being more drawn to Shin in his older years as he himself integrated both expressions of the Dharma in his own life.

I have Suzuki's "Buddha of Infinite Light" and also his "Mysticism:Buddhist and Christian", plus a few other writings. His exchange in dialogue with Thomas Merton "Wisdom in Emptiness", contained in Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite", has been a major influence.

At some time I might find somewhere to open a thread on how the "Sourcebook" I have explains the main difference between the two logics of "east" and "west", which is very interesting.

I know of the "Three Wheels" in London but have never visited.

Thank you.
By the way, is my guess citing Suzuki's thought correct?
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:56 am
laic wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:12 am
Parsifal wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:54 am
After a couple of days having passed, I suddenly came to feel like getting something like an inspiration to tell me what you meant. I do not know why, nevertheless. Daring to say if any, one of the member told me information relevant to Three Wheels in UK, and I took an interest in it and then I bought D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Shin". Due to this by chance, I might have noticed even only part of your messages. While I liked to hear from you sometime, was you affected by D. T. Suzuki more or less? This is just my intuition, sorry for stepping into your personal affairs.

You may know, we Japanese are poor at understanding logical discourese in addition to a language barrier. Furthermore, while I have read Suzuki's "Pure Land Lineage Thought" in Japanese not so long ago, it was too difficult for me to finish reading it up and gave up on a halfway due to quite unlogical, intuitive and discrete. It is funny but true, his book translated by Taira Satoh is rather easier to understand somehow.
Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic". Anyway, please keep patient with my lack of skill as to logics and language.
Hello again. I think all have some sort of intuitive logic, and as I understand it, there is often a difference between cultures. I have a "Sourcebook" of Japanese Philosophy where the main difference is explained. Anyway, this can be a barrier. And as you say, language itself can also be a barrier. I only know and speak English. Sorry.

Yes, among others, D T Suzuki has been an influence. Both zen and Pure Land. His mother was Shin and he wrote on both, seemingly being more drawn to Shin in his older years as he himself integrated both expressions of the Dharma in his own life.

I have Suzuki's "Buddha of Infinite Light" and also his "Mysticism:Buddhist and Christian", plus a few other writings. His exchange in dialogue with Thomas Merton "Wisdom in Emptiness", contained in Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite", has been a major influence.

At some time I might find somewhere to open a thread on how the "Sourcebook" I have explains the main difference between the two logics of "east" and "west", which is very interesting.

I know of the "Three Wheels" in London but have never visited.

Thank you.
By the way, is my guess citing Suzuki's thought correct?
Hi, you said:- Probably what you meant is supposed to have something to do with Suzuki's "Logic of Superrational Logic"

I'm not familiar with this description. Maybe I know of it from his assertion that "zero = infinity" or when he contrasts the "eastern" logic that A = A because it is not A with so called Western logic that A cannot be A and not A at the same time.

(Sometimes I have to laugh...... :rolling: )

All to do with (I think) the contrast between being and becoming, that reality cannot be conceived, that true life can only be lived but not "thought".

Anyway, that is enough of that!
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Parsifal wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:30 am

Even though I cannot say any definitive comment until after having your explanation, I intuitively noticed what you meant has possibly something to do with a discourse represented by one of Japanese famous Pure Land master, Bennei Yamazaki. For your reference, I hereby paste URL relevent to the master monk Yamazaki. https://www.yamazakibennei-museum.com/b ... anami.html
Hi again, just to say I have tried to load your link and allow Google to translate, but if I try to load too much at once I get the message:-

400. That’s an error.

Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. That’s all we know.


But just translating one or two small sections I have to say it seems way above my head. Sorry, will have to give it a miss.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by Parsifal »

laic wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:39 pm
Parsifal wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:30 am

Even though I cannot say any definitive comment until after having your explanation, I intuitively noticed what you meant has possibly something to do with a discourse represented by one of Japanese famous Pure Land master, Bennei Yamazaki. For your reference, I hereby paste URL relevent to the master monk Yamazaki. https://www.yamazakibennei-museum.com/b ... anami.html
Hi again, just to say I have tried to load your link and allow Google to translate, but if I try to load too much at once I get the message:-

400. That’s an error.

Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request. That’s all we know.


But just translating one or two small sections I have to say it seems way above my head. Sorry, will have to give it a miss.
I do not know why you had such an error. I am trying to the same file already translated into English by Google Translate. https://www.yamazakibennei-museum.com/b ... anami.html If still invalid, please try to search your PC with a keyword "Yamazaki Ben'nei Memorial Museum". Opening message is as follows: top page
Opening
About Yamazaki Benei
His life and religious art
contemplation
Benei Yamazaki: Why did modern times need 'spirituality'? Eisuke Wakamatsu
Beyond Zen and the Pure Land, the Conflict, New Horizons of Mahayana Buddhism Sho Kawanami
Yamazaki Benei's Nembutsu thought Yuzo Yuya
Benei Shonin and Hojoji Temple Ishikawa Jogan
Information on the Yamazaki Benei Memorial Hall
Visiting information
Exhibitions, topics, event information
Appraisal of Benei Yamazaki's calligraphic work
Yamazaki Benei Publications
contemplation
Beyond Zen and the Pure Land, the Conflict, New Horizons of Mahayana Buddhism
Mahayana Buddhism was established in India around the time of the Common Era, and spread through China to Japan. This is the reason why so-called Buddhism is said to have been introduced from the Three Kingdoms. In addition, Mahayana Buddhism is based on the relationship between Zen and the Pure Land.

1. Zen Jyomibun Era (Establishment of Chinese Zen - around the 6th century AD -)
2. The era of Zen Purification (from the establishment of Chinese Zen to the present)
3. Era of Zen Pure Integration (a new creation of Mahayana Buddhism by returning to the origin of Zen Pure, rather than practicing Zen Pure, after the 20th century)
---to be continued---
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

Good morning Parsifal,

I have just had Google translate a random section and here it is:-

Here, "self-nature envelops the world of the ten ways" is the content of the Zen experience as it is, but it is also compatible with the total communion with Amida Buddha, the spiritual personality (Nenbutsu-zanmai). "Don't be biased towards the vacuum, don't cling to the mystical existence" tells us exactly what's going on. In this way, he returns the opposition of Zen Pure to the origin of the samadhi of the Mahayana Buddha Shakyamuni, and there he finds the world of Honen's religious experience. For Yamazaki, as seen in the sentence ``Remember Tuobutsu and create one's own Buddha'', nembutsu itself was nothing but the practice of auspiciousness. And on that line of auspiciousness, Nembutsu and Zen began to open up. There, Zen and Nembutsu are one world. In addition, Yamazaki left many poems, etc., and the world of Zenjo Ichinyo is also richly developed there.

And again:-

Ben'ei Yamazaki, when preaching the practice of nembutsu sanmai, said, ``(in front of the nyorai) you (the practitioner of nembutsu) lose your mind, and all that is left is the nyorai.'' It describes the place where the mind disappears (emptiness) in accordance with the Tathagata. In this way, emptiness is established in line with, or as a result of, nembutsu samadhi, and emptiness does not exist as a fundamental principle from the beginning. In this respect, it is conceivable that the vast number of Hannya sutras was established along the line of pagoda worship and nenbutsu samadhi. However, in later generations, as seen in "Kongo Hannya Sutra" and "Hannya Shinkyo", etc., when only one aspect of emptiness came to be emphasized from the practice of nembutsu sanmai as a whole - the development of emptiness itself. Although it was an inevitable development of nembutsu samadhi, the scriptures were established in which only emptiness was preached independently. In the early Mahayana sutras, even if the Hannya sutras preaching emptiness and Hannya sutras are considered to have been formed, it is not because the Hannya sutras preaching emptiness were mixed with the idea of ​​nenbutsu, but rather, they were linked to pagoda worship. From the practice of boat samadhi, emptiness and a huge group of Hannya sutras were established.


I'm sorry, this is all just a bit complex/historically detailed for me. Possibly interesting, and we are here to learn, yet in many ways I already find zen and Pure Land "compatible".

Thank you
Last edited by laic on Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by muni »

Good morning,

I have been reading yours posts with interesse.

"Illusion immediately becomes more workable when we acknowledge it as simply an illusion. The Western habit is to work against the grain and to try and organize the illusory into something solid and structured…In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

May I ask you, because I am not in the Zen tradition, how you see this regarding the discussion?
“Simply let experience take place very freely, so that your open heart is suffused with the tenderness of true compassion.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knHJq1H51K4
"When we rest in the present moment, a space reveals itself. It is an inner space that is unoccupied by the cloud of thoughts. Without witnessing that space, it is hard for the mind to see beyond its own interpretation of reality."
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by laic »

muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:09 am Good morning,

I have been reading yours posts with interesse.

"Illusion immediately becomes more workable when we acknowledge it as simply an illusion. The Western habit is to work against the grain and to try and organize the illusory into something solid and structured…In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

May I ask you, because I am not in the Zen tradition, how you see this regarding the discussion?
Hi, I cannot trace your quotation in this thread.

Maybe you could advise who you are addressing?

Thank you.
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Re: Why aren’t there discussions about Zen vs. Pure Land?

Post by muni »

laic wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:00 am
muni wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:09 am Good morning,

I have been reading yours posts with interesse.

"Illusion immediately becomes more workable when we acknowledge it as simply an illusion. The Western habit is to work against the grain and to try and organize the illusory into something solid and structured…In the stressful attempt to nail down the illusory nature of things, our chance to be at ease, spacious, awake, and free, which already exists within ourselves, gets lost."

May I ask you, because I am not in the Zen tradition, how you see this regarding the discussion?
Hi, I cannot trace your quotation in this thread.

Maybe you could advise who you are addressing?

Thank you.
oops yes, I am not so good in quoting and I saw different words by both of you.
"As I said, I try to speak from my own experience and understanding. I'm sorry if it comes across as obscure and difficult to understand."

"Mentioning non-duality may well make it more obscure ( :smile: ) nevertheless, this is that All, Reality-as-is, is not two, not that "all is One". A significant difference. Everything is relationship, yet is not two. I'm sorry if such is obscure, yet I am simply trying to speak out of my own experience."

"All to do with (I think) the contrast between being and becoming, that reality cannot be conceived, that true life can only be lived but not "thought"." Laic
I think that is what in the best case should be, to speak from experiencing, even it can be it is not always understood. As I am only an older woman, I see the value in the words by Tsoknyi Rinpoche which I posted and I see here and there such shining in your conversation.
And so as well yours communication of intuitive logic I found interesting.
"Even though I cannot say any definitive comment until after having your explanation, I intuitively noticed what you meant..." Parsival
I could be wrong, but see in your conversation the meaning by Tsoknyi Rinpoche. Or how you see these words by him? Many thanks.

:namaste:
“Simply let experience take place very freely, so that your open heart is suffused with the tenderness of true compassion.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knHJq1H51K4
"When we rest in the present moment, a space reveals itself. It is an inner space that is unoccupied by the cloud of thoughts. Without witnessing that space, it is hard for the mind to see beyond its own interpretation of reality."
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