What does practice really look like

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CTO
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What does practice really look like

Post by CTO »

Hello,

I am unsure how to proceed in this path and what it truly entails. From my experience so far Vajrayana has entailed reading lines in either Tibetan or English over and over most of it being things that are not exactly relatable. I got into this with the expectation of doing deep visualizations with a deities and mediations on energy channels ie. Tantra but all I have been doing is reading..either a tsok over zoom or similar. I have gotten empowerments which I enjoy the experience but after that its over no continual teaching or anything just a document of more reading. Even receiving a lung for say a ngondro and its like do this 100,000 times which appears to be just more reading with a visualization of a second or two?



Is Buddhist practice mostly just reading 'recitations' Its far smoother in Tibetan then English and also faster but then I don't understand? Reading English isn't enjoyable for recitations. It feels like okay you get a empowerment now go figure everything else out on your own and there are meet ups for more chanting/reading.

I dont know, I thought practice would be based more on meditations and visualizations and working with energies but from my experience its just been reading..for example HYT you have to commit to more reading every day multiple times? What time/energy is left for the actual practices..

Perhaps this is why most are only monk practitioners to do this properly. It feels boring and I was super excited from all the reading ive done about practices but feels distant/unattainable. Maybe what I thought it was isn't what is was. My interest was always on the yogic, tantric side as in Naldjors.

Mahasiddhas appear lively and wild stories of Drukpa Kunley and living life embracing elements not reading all day call it recitations or chanting..its still just reading.


Yes Ive connected with Guru's for the ability to learn but it doesn't feel right as in a close heart connection like its talked about, I doubt my name would be remembered. I dream of a close connection with a guru that guides you through and doing deep visualizations and mediations and having a relationship thats intimate. But right now it feels more like im an attendee at a conference and then giving a ton of homework of reading.

If my view is wrong or if your experiences are different please let me know.

Thank you.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I moved this out of Tantra talk because there is no restricted content in your post, and I feel it’s a conversation that can easily be had.

I think what you might need is for someone to go through a sadhana line by line, with in depth explanation for each section.

There are also instructions on how to actually work directly with sound, how to do visualization, etc. during the actual practice and in post meditation. You don’t really need to stay over at your Gurus pad for that, you can read, ask other teachers and seniors you trust, then save the really heavy questions for when you get a teachers time.

Honestly unless you are exceptionally lucky and have constant direct instructions, you have to take on the responsibility for educating yourself somewhat on this stuff.

There are definitely practices working with channels, etc.

I think the very fact that you see it as “just chanting” is diagnostic itself, if it’s just reciting words that’s all it is. You should be visualizing almost non stop during the Sadhana I’m familiar with, but IME it really takes some time and ability to balance tension and laxity before you get any real competence at it, and a bit more time to move from “faking it” to “making it”.

Think of learning it as much as an art form as a science.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

CTO wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:25 am I am unsure how to proceed in this path and what it truly entails.
A lot depends on the tradition and the teacher. Some traditions put a lot of emphasis on study in order to have a knowledgeable foundation for practice. Visualization and sadhana practice are like a cooking recipe. It can be simple or complicated. But if you don’t understand what the ingredients do, what their purpose is, then even if you can go through the motions and, for example, visualize the sugar in a recipe as white, if you don’t also understand that the whole function of the sugar is to add the quality of sweetness, then you are only practicing at a kind of superficial level. So, study is important in that respect.

At the same time, other traditions encourage a number of practices, even for “beginners”, relatively simple sadhanas such as Chenrezig, Amitabha, Tara, Guru Rinpoche, and expect you to just practice them, and then read up on them or get teachings on them later, if and when you can, and eventually move on to more advanced practices, ones which require more commitments.

In either situation, the student needs to request teachings from the teacher; teachings which explain the visualization practices, or teachings on meditation, energy & channels or whatever. Your question is really one for your teacher.

This is also difficult if you can’t really meet face to face.
Zoom is okay for group gatherings, and even Skype or FaceTime is okay, but actually meeting with your teacher and asking about these things, in person, if you can do that, you should.

It is not uncommon for Vajrayana students to travel hundreds of miles at least once or twice a year, to be with their teachers for an hour or less.

Since you asked for personal experiences, my teacher didn’t tell his students, as a whole, “okay, everybody must do this visualization practice”. But if we met one-on-one, he would advise us to focus on a certain practice, or do ngondro, or to meditate more, and this advice was often different for each student.

I think everyone would like that “Karate Kid / Kung Fu Panda” type of guru-disciple relationship. They can and do happen. It’s not just in fiction or legends. I think that there is a lot of truth in that old saying, “the master appears when the pupil is ready” so, it’s good to keep up with whatever practice you’ve been given to do. If it’s boring, maybe there is a teaching in that, too.


Aside from that…

I think a very important thing to keep in mind is, the purpose of practice isn’t to practice. It’s not like playing the piano every day so that you can become a better piano player. Practices such as visualization and working with channels, as well as studying complicated theory such as teachings by Tsongkhapa and Nagarjuna, all of that is just a tool box, a means for developing the qualities for realizing one’s Buddha nature in order to benefit sentient beings. Some people dismiss Vajrayana practice as “mental gymnastics” and it can actually amount to that and nothing more, the way many body builders develop muscles to show off, but which serve no other useful purpose. Without returning to the real motivation for practice, it becomes an exotic but meaningless hobby, and really, just another type of self-indulgent grasping.

The thing to consider is, if you had to put all of that stuff we call “Dharma practice” on hold, if you had no opportunity to sit on a cushion and flip through the sadhana, or say mantras, make noise with bells and drums, or even burn incense, if you were a monk in a prison, what would your “Dharma practice” look like?

“Am I developing compassion and wisdom? Am I gaining insights? Am I applying the teachings to every situation that confronts me?” That is really what practice looks like.

Your teacher is like your doctor. If visualization of channels and other practices like that will help you, your teacher will tell you that. If your teacher doesn’t know what you need, then you should communicate better. And if they still don’t know, maybe you should look for a different teacher with whom you can make a better connection.

There are many good teachers with whom you can establish a meaningful connection/relationship. Don’t get discouraged!
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Kai lord »

CTO wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:25 am Even receiving a lung for say a ngondro and its like do this 100,000 times which appears to be just more reading with a visualization of a second or two?
You are not supposed to visualize only for one or two seconds, you are supposed to hold the visualization for the entire duration of the practice as you read and perform the mudras, etc. Furthermore your visualization must be very clear to the smallest details like the eyes of the deity, if not, you should continue to do it until your visualization gets clearer and clearer. And thats just the basics.

Is Buddhist practice mostly just reading 'recitations' Its far smoother in Tibetan then English and also faster but then I don't understand? Reading English isn't enjoyable for recitations. It feels like okay you get a empowerment now go figure everything else out on your own and there are meet ups for more chanting/reading.
Only read in Tibetan if you understand what you are reading.
I dont know, I thought practice would be based more on meditations and visualizations and working with energies but from my experience its just been reading..for example HYT you have to commit to more reading every day multiple times? What time/energy is left for the actual practices..
Doing the sadhana is the actual practice, you start off by meditating on the four immeasurables until they are firmly embedded into your awareness, followed by dissolving everything into emptiness (meditation again), then the four preliminaries, etc. So there are already meditation practices from the get go.

If you are not doing that at the start of the practice, you are already doing it incorrectly and its not much different from cosplaying as a hindu deity during Halloween.

Perhaps this is why most are only monk practitioners to do this properly. It feels boring and I was super excited from all the reading ive done about practices but feels distant/unattainable. Maybe what I thought it was isn't what is was. My interest was always on the yogic, tantric side as in Naldjors.
You probably find it boring because you are not treating your visualization as your object of meditation.

Coordinating your body movement with your recitation while maintaining a clear mental visualization require lot of concentration and effort. So you shouldn't feel boring at all

Mahasiddhas appear lively and wild stories of Drukpa Kunley and living life embracing elements not reading all day call it recitations or chanting..its still just reading.
The same Mahasiddhas who wrote that if one can't even visualize properly, they shouldn't even attempt to work with energies?

Yes Ive connected with Guru's for the ability to learn but it doesn't feel right as in a close heart connection like its talked about, I doubt my name would be remembered. I dream of a close connection with a guru that guides you through and doing deep visualizations and mediation and having a relationship thats intimate. But right now it feels more like im an attendee at a conference and then giving a ton of homework of reading.
How your guru feels about you is not the primary factor here. More importantly its how you view your guru during practices.
If my view is wrong or if your experiences are different please let me know.
My recommendation is that you either

1) Join a group practice, go through the process with them after which ask everyone there how to do the practice properly

2) Buy relevant commentaries from bookshops or online and start reading them to find out what to do specifically at different points of your practices.

3) Ask your guru, email him or something. Or get a resident lama from the center to guide you.

4) Attend any available incoming program or teachings by credible teachers that are relevant to your practice.
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PeterC
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by PeterC »

The long sadhanas are intended to help beginners get visualisations right. Short sadhanas are for more experienced practitioners. But you should in any case be spending more time on the visualization and the practice than on the recitation. If you’re just reciting then you’re probably not really doing the practice.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by ThreeVows »

CTO wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:25 am Even receiving a lung for say a ngondro and its like do this 100,000 times which appears to be just more reading with a visualization of a second or two?
Have you actually engaged with ngondro, or you've just read about it?
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Terma »

I very strongly suggest keeping the aspiration to practice Vajrayana in the future, while at the same time working to build a very solid foundation based on study, reflection and meditation. I really wish I had taken this advice a long time ago, as a lot of us tend to gloss over all this stuff to get to the "good stuff". From my experience, it is essential to create the right causes to engage in a successful Vajrayana practice, otherwise in a way you are right, it is a bit of a waste of time going through all these recitations and mental exercises while seemingly not seeing any benefit in doing so.

Not to discourage you at all, but more the opposite- to encourage you to take full advantage of the enormous amount of merit you have accumulated in order to meet the Vajrayana teachings, and get as much essence out of this precious opportunity as you can.

Wishing you the best in your practice. 🙏
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by tobes »

Jumbo jet analogy:

When you start on the runway, it's heavy and slow. Takes a lot of energy and power just to get the engines going. Then slowly it inches forward.

Then, it does gather speed. At some point, a lot of speed.

Then, it can actually take off, and fly.

Momentum, momentum, momentum. It takes a lot of time and effort to cultivate this......

Practical advice would be: do the practices that give you even a little bit of momentum, that help you inch along the runway until you really gather speed. Ngondro is excellent for this, but not the only possibility.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Hazel »

Memorize it, then there's no reading. Understand it, then it's not just mindless repetition.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by zerwe »

Hazel wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:34 am Memorize it, then there's no reading. Understand it, then it's not just mindless repetition.
Yes, this :good: then it is meant in this way to become experiential.

With all that said, you need a strong foundation in the fundamentals (i.e., sutra mahayana) and once you have this, and the generation stage aspect
of the practice becomes experiential, then you are prepared to take on the more advanced aspects of the completion stages (i.e., working with energy centers, channels, etc...). I have had one of my Lamas recommend that we can try a little of the completion stages out to get a taste and some familiarity, but there is NO completion stage practice without mastery of the generation stage.

Also, all of the above is meant to generate within you a real feeling to generate some sort of energy and momentum. Again, it is experiential not just reciting words. To view it as merely reciting words, well your practice becomes just that mere words.

All of this takes a very long time, dedication, energy, and commitment. Maybe more than a single lifetime, depending on your karma and capacity.

All of this depends on study, receiving blessings and instructions from a qualified guru(s).

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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

BTW when I asked one of my teachers something like this a long time ago he said "there comes a point where it is impossible to tell the difference between and expert and and expert faker".

So, there is a process of things being kind of contrived, until they aren't.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by bryandavis »

CTO wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:25 am Hello,

I am unsure how to proceed in this path and what it truly entails. From my experience so far Vajrayana has entailed reading lines in either Tibetan or English over and over most of it being things that are not exactly relatable. I got into this with the expectation of doing deep visualizations with a deities and mediations on energy channels ie. Tantra but all I have been doing is reading..either a tsok over zoom or similar. I have gotten empowerments which I enjoy the experience but after that its over no continual teaching or anything just a document of more reading. Even receiving a lung for say a ngondro and its like do this 100,000 times which appears to be just more reading with a visualization of a second or two?

The issue with "no continual teachings" is a very common thing to navigate. With the whole online dharma phenomenon, although amazing in many ways, leaves a void of having some kind of continual support working with a teacher IRL and having support from sangha. As well, as has been stated on this board many many times, to get the tri or instructions after an empowerment will not always happen right away. This is especially true when there is a more high profile Guru giving the wang. So we have to be proactive in finding resources and environments that will support our learning.

In general 100,000 time equals time, time equals repetition, repetition leads to memorization and at the same time understanding unfolds. With time and absorption and understanding we start to "feel" the practice at a more subtle level and things start to work themselves out. We combine this with feedback from a teacher and resources related to the practice. The whole blue print becomes clear over time and we are not so stuck looking at one section and see the bigger picture of the practice.

The verse / prose / prayers you are repeating are all triggering the corse mind to rethink and reprogram our current condition. They are blueprints and triggers to allow access to a deeper level of meaning. They are symbolic and invoke feeling and meaning.

Unless you understand the path or purification, and the basis to purify or what not in your respective lineage, then it wonts make much sense. A foundation in the framework of the general buddhist view on things like the four noble truths, the twelve links, refuge, bodhicitta, buddha nature etc are all needed before really working with vajrayana, imo.



Is Buddhist practice mostly just reading 'recitations' Its far smoother in Tibetan then English and also faster but then I don't understand? Reading English isn't enjoyable for recitations. It feels like okay you get a empowerment now go figure everything else out on your own and there are meet ups for more chanting/reading.


Its "smoother" in tibetan do to usually being versified. However, there are now many good English versifications available in many sanghas. For example the vajrakila and Yamantaka practices that Garchen Rinpoche leads have been versified a few times by different translators. The skill of the translator and also their ability to put into verse form comes into play, but when in group practices, for me, the English verse is no less "profound" than the reading transliterated tibetan that I might not understand.

I dont know, I thought practice would be based more on meditations and visualizations and working with energies but from my experience its just been reading..for example HYT you have to commit to more reading every day multiple times? What time/energy is left for the actual practices..

Once you know what is going on within the sadhana framework, and are a bit settled, there is automatically work with "tsa-lung" this is the function of mantra and visualization. You are not reading, as has been pointed out, you are absorbing into the meaning of what is written. It is like a guided meditation that allows one access into the mandala of the deity, which is none other that what your nature is, as introduced in the wang. The actual practice is understanding the process. Vajrayana works with movement and expression, this is partially what a sadhana is guiding you to understand.

Perhaps this is why most are only monk practitioners to do this properly. It feels boring and I was super excited from all the reading ive done about practices but feels distant/unattainable. Maybe what I thought it was isn't what is was. My interest was always on the yogic, tantric side as in Naldjors.

The whole monks doing it properly is a misconception. If you are bored there can be many reasons why. A sadhana is part of the yoga. The sadhana is tantric. Naljors or yogis are always engaging in Sadhana. Yoga and sadhana are not separate, but rather there are different facets of "yoga."

Mahasiddhas appear lively and wild stories of Drukpa Kunley and living life embracing elements not reading all day call it recitations or chanting..its still just reading.

As you receive more teachings and training, and as you "empty the pot" and allow concepts of what you think is supposed to happen, things will become clear. Also there are many paths and methods in Vajrayana. You just need to connect with a teacher and method that are appropriate for you.

Yes Ive connected with Guru's for the ability to learn but it doesn't feel right as in a close heart connection like its talked about, I doubt my name would be remembered. I dream of a close connection with a guru that guides you through and doing deep visualizations and mediations and having a relationship thats intimate. But right now it feels more like im an attendee at a conference and then giving a ton of homework of reading.

A heart connection or karmic connection to a Guru will manifest when causes and conditions come tougher. And one day you will meet the Guru who introduces you to your nature, and that will be the biggest blessing of all. The internet is a big giant conference hall, this feeling sound familiar to me. Things will work out with aspiration and perseverance.

If my view is wrong or if your experiences are different please let me know.

Thank you.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by zerwe »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:12 am BTW when I asked one of my teachers something like this a long time ago he said "there comes a point where it is impossible to tell the difference between and expert and and expert faker".

So, there is a process of things being kind of contrived, until they aren't.
I have heard this quite a few times. "Fake it, until you make it!" Actually, I think this applies to learning anything as well.

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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by CTO »

First, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time and energy to reply with real thought relation and consideration. I am honestly surprised by the support, I think the first time this has happened on a forum/online domaine for me. If too much time has passed and I get no response then that is okay too.

I was frustrated, overwhelmed and looking at the short sadhana totally like I need an anchor cuz Im lost beyond following order, I can admit I didn't understand the process and framework. These higher teaching I acquired were drop ins, I wasn't aware of what I was getting into. Right now it makes sense based on what has been said to do the short Dudjom terser ngondro and do the 500,000 recitations in order to feel the path. I was told to do 100 a day in 3 years will be finished. As far as going into the practice of it basically just said go online there is everything there but he did go over the 5 branches.

My mom is actually who introduced me to buddhism when I was a kid so I am familiar with Buddhism over all, Ive done alot of studying on the different deities, schools, teachers, history etc but as far as 'actual' practice goes, I am beginner... Vajrayana its truly the PHD of Buddhism.

I have decided to not give up and continue, I would just be starting The Preliminary Practices of the New Treasures of Dudjom.

The thing is I am not clear on when to begin the visualizations when to end, its all confusing for me. My idea is to take some group ngondro lessons I find on web and also listen to records of Lama Tharchin Rinpoche. I cant lie, getting through this Ngondro 500,000 to finally get to 'exciting' practice is going to take serious commitment, I feel like The Weeknd singing 'I might not make it' .. I understand Ngondro is a practice that you can reach enlightenment unto itself and comprises everything but still I want nothing more then to get to the wrathful side of practice.

As of recently I have stubbled upon a strong connection to Tsasum Lingpa, I would be content with only practicing his Terma teachings for the rest of my life, him and Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche are my inspirational Lamas. These guru's would give me all the motivation in samsara to break through. I actually had a vision recently of Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche sitting under a large tree after I ate a Norbu and went through a portal that my mother said its safe to go (I hesitated) there was a recurring black wrathful face with orange flaming hair popping up extremely clear. Maybe Troma Nagmo but looked very familiar to Vajrakilaya of Red Amulet I saw later.... I ask Kunzang Dorje to be his student and to help me, was in all white shining bright and clear like real life, Hr goes to offer me a long black hat that looks like fires on it and a melong mirror. Then he has this black rock or similar rolling in his hand around and I think of Terma.. basically he snaps his finger everything goes black, It comes back to light and I think Refuge tree! I put on the hat and 'wake up'. I google melong mirror meaning or similar and the first thing I click is padmasambahava centre..I scroll down and see Tsasum Lingpa and think thats the hat! Thats him! I started reading about him and there were so many similarities even down to what practices I will master Maha/Anu Yoga..Ive lived a crazy life im 30 now and he passed at 30. I would not say you're 'normal' dharma practitioner, Im a thug turned spiritual seed of fire. This is part of why I found just reading so difficult, Im naturally hot and physically like movement. I do weight lifting a lot - noticed someone brought up bodybuilding. Anyway right beside his image on the site I see Yeshe Tsogyal with a melong. His main protector also holds a mirror. Ive always wanted to tattoo or cut 2 small circles or lines on either cheek - his previous incarnation hold these markings! I just know there is a connection, maybe I am his reincarnation, wouldn't that be..crazy? I will dig deeper and speak to high lamas about this in the future. I want to learn from a teacher like him, or his cycles themselves. I must be ordained in the Ngakphang tradition. If you are aware and able to share a teacher that fits this description/lineage, It would change my life and countless sentient beings. Thank You
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Basically every line of a sadhana describes what you should be visualizing at that moment. This is why you need someone to explain it to you line by line. You should visualize what each line is instructing you to visualize from the beginning of that line. From line to line the visualization develops and transforms. With practice you'll be able to visualize the correct thing without having to recite the line first. But at the beginning you may have to familiarize yourself with what the line says and means.
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Re: What does practice really look like

Post by Matt J »

I'm going to take an opposing view (not necessarily for OP). If you don't understand the practices, or won't do them, I would consider finding a teacher and a set of practices you will do. I would also take a look at the other students and see if they are what you want to look like after practicing for some period of time.
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