Tibetan Qigong?

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bryandavis
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Tibetan Qigong?

Post by bryandavis »

Anybody ever heard of such a thing as what is being announced below? This is taken from the Garchen Buddhist Institute website.

"From the lineage of the great Dzogchen master Khenpo Munsel, who is Garchen Rinpoche’s root guru, come the Tibetan Qigong practices taught by our qualified guides..."

Here is a link about the founder of the "Tibetan Qigong" system.

http://kayluthi-tibetanqigong.com/master-zi-sheng-wang/

I have a good amount of experience in the Chinese marital arts world, and am quite familiar with the tendency to make outrageous claims about abilities and lineage, etc.

Reading the bio in the link above this Qigong master claimed to have studied with Khenpo Munsel for 40 years. But, Khenpo Munsel was imprisoned until 1979/80 and passed in 1993. So time line can't add up.

Just curious if anyone has first had experience with this Qigong lineage.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

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How would “Tibetan Qigong” be differentiated from Tsa Lung anyway, or are they just calling it that? The videos are all very simple.

I looked at the pdf and it is just a simple exercise resembling lots of qigong I have seen and using the usual points on the feet, neutral pelvic tilt, etc.

It’s not clear whether they are combining the Chakra system with the small circulation that would often be a part of such Qigong exercises or what. I feel like mixing the two systems would be weird, personally.

But yeah, I don’t really understand what this is beyond Tsa Lung.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:48 pm How would “Tibetan Qigong” be differentiated from Tsa Lung anyway, or are they just calling it that? ...
But yeah, I don’t really understand what this is beyond Tsa Lung.
It would differ in intention and purpose (although qigong can have a spiritual purpose as well, so perhaps not).

Where did you see these videos and pdfs?
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

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kirtu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:05 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:48 pm How would “Tibetan Qigong” be differentiated from Tsa Lung anyway, or are they just calling it that? ...
But yeah, I don’t really understand what this is beyond Tsa Lung.
It would differ in intention and purpose (although qigong can have a spiritual purpose as well, so perhaps not).

Where did you see these videos and pdfs?
https://kayluthi-tibetanqigong.com/mast ... heng-wang/

From Bryan's link, look around and they have a Youtube channel, some PDF's etc.

Anyway, I am not opposed to idea that there are parallels, I would just personally find it weird to try working with the Tibetan chakra system and the Chinese small and large circulations together, the Meridian system is different enough from the Cakra system... According to Yang, Wing-Ming and others there are or were "Buddhist" versions of using these, but most stuff I have seen these days is based on Daoist Neigong, near as I can tell.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by PeterC »

Looks like the usual derivative BS that he made up. His claim about Khenpo Munsel is almost certainly false. KM went into prison in 1959, came out in 1981 and died in 1994. Most of his time after his release was spent on the two monasteries he supported. Even if a Chinese student had been able to spend a lot of time with him (which in those days wasn't a given), would he have taught them tsalung that none of his other tibetan students now teach? And a tsalung that looks (from the limited amount shown on his website) nothing like the sort of exercises you see in other tibetan lineages, but looks mostly like generic Chinese qigong exercises?

I'd have thought that by now we would be able to spot this sort of person a mile off.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

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PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 am Looks like the usual derivative BS that he made up. His claim about Khenpo Munsel is almost certainly false. KM went into prison in 1959, came out in 1981 and died in 1994. Most of his time after his release was spent on the two monasteries he supported. Even if a Chinese student had been able to spend a lot of time with him (which in those days wasn't a given), would he have taught them tsalung that none of his other tibetan students now teach? And a tsalung that looks (from the limited amount shown on his website) nothing like the sort of exercises you see in other tibetan lineages, but looks mostly like generic Chinese qigong exercises?

I'd have thought that by now we would be able to spot this sort of person a mile off.
I was just withholding judgement until I hear more on principle, personally my immediate reaction to the whole thing is pretty red-flaggy. I have lots of years in martial arts, like the OP...so the tone is not unfamiliar, I just know I have misjudged people a couple times in the past, so I'm willing to keep an open mind within reason.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:43 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 am Looks like the usual derivative BS that he made up. His claim about Khenpo Munsel is almost certainly false. KM went into prison in 1959, came out in 1981 and died in 1994. Most of his time after his release was spent on the two monasteries he supported. Even if a Chinese student had been able to spend a lot of time with him (which in those days wasn't a given), would he have taught them tsalung that none of his other tibetan students now teach? And a tsalung that looks (from the limited amount shown on his website) nothing like the sort of exercises you see in other tibetan lineages, but looks mostly like generic Chinese qigong exercises?

I'd have thought that by now we would be able to spot this sort of person a mile off.
I was just withholding judgement until I hear more on principle, personally my immediate reaction to the whole thing is pretty red-flaggy. I have lots of years in martial arts, like the OP...so the tone is not unfamiliar, I just know I have misjudged people a couple times in the past, so I'm willing to keep an open mind within reason.
I was going with 'preponderance of evidence' rather than 'beyond reasonable doubt'. But the evidence is pretty preponderant on this one. And raising funds for a temple in the Bay Area - cherry on the cake.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by thiquebosatsu »

As someone with a decent bit of experience with standard Chinese Qigong, this is literally just that, being repackaged to make some quick money. :coffee:
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bryandavis
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by bryandavis »

Hello all,

The timeline of the teacher boasting affiliation with Khenpo Munsel in a way that is way out of the norm, the repackaging and extraordinary claims all point in the direction of being untrustworthy.

My main reason for getting feedback is to be able and expose this a bit and hopefully point this out to the organizers.

Those organizing these events at GBI (Garchen Buddhist Institute.) are opening up trusting students to an untrustworthy lineage of qigong. It actually saddens me a lot.

This same event has Krinshan Das singing kirtan. I actually like Krishna Das and his kirtan, but all of this mixing up lineage and method and bringing into the fold of the collective sangha is just irresponsible IMHO.

Anyway, I know how the organization works in non-profits and dharma centers so nothing new there as far as a few people making decisions without consultation to other members.

I will enjoy the Teachings by Garchen Rinpoche on the elements, and skip the rest.

:cheers:
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

bryandavis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:54 pm My main reason for getting feedback is to be able and expose this a bit and hopefully point this out to the organizers.

Those organizing these events at GBI (Garchen Buddhist Institute.) are opening up trusting students to an untrustworthy lineage of qigong. It actually saddens me a lot.

This same event has Krinshan Das singing kirtan. I actually like Krishna Das and his kirtan, but all of this mixing up lineage and method and bringing into the fold of the collective sangha is just irresponsible IMHO.
:good:

Yeah, I cannot help but to feel the same way.

While I understand that dharma centers have to make some money, they often seem rather gullible. If a respectable organization hosts iffy events, they give those leading the events part of their credibility.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by PeterC »

Sanghas doing dumb stuff is…not exactly unusual, and certainly not worth worrying about. In my humble opinion.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by lhaksam.dorje »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:43 am
I was just withholding judgement until I hear more on principle, personally my immediate reaction to the whole thing is pretty red-flaggy. I have lots of years in martial arts, like the OP...so the tone is not unfamiliar, I just know I have misjudged people a couple times in the past, so I'm willing to keep an open mind within reason.
My immediate reaction was also red flaggy. I'm also a longtime chinese martial arts practitioner. It seems normal (almost required) in that world to trumpet the benefits and prestige of your practice and your lineage. I found it grating to see elements of that tone in the context of (I would presume) a 'serious' Buddhist event. However, in general the idea of doing qigong or taichi as part of a meditation 'retreat/event', appeals to me greatly.

Edit...
Actually I just reread a bit of the stuff at https://kayluthi-tibetanqigong.com/mast ... heng-wang/
That's pretty outrageous...uh oh :thinking:
Nevertheless I'd still go and check out the forms :yinyang:
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by Sādhaka »

Apparently Chetsang Rinpoche does Qigong.

I would ask what benefit could come from Qigong that one couldn’t get from khrul-khor; but perhaps in this case, I would guess that Chetsang Rinpoche had already done khrul-khor for years, and already got the benefits from it, and now in his older age he has no reason to do all those intense Yantras, and now prefers the gentler Qigong movements for health.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by climb-up »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:33 pm Apparently Chetsang Rinpoche does Qigong.

I would ask what benefit could come from Qigong that one couldn’t get from khrul-khor; but perhaps in this case, I would guess that Chetsang Rinpoche had already done khrul-khor for years, and already got the benefits from it, and now in his older age he has no reason to do all those intense Yantras, and now prefers the gentler Qigong movements for health.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche did Taiji for his health, I assume for the same reasons you mention.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by wiseowl »

bryandavis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:54 pm This same event has Krinshan Das singing kirtan. I actually like Krishna Das and his kirtan, but all of this mixing up lineage and method and bringing into the fold of the collective sangha is just irresponsible IMHO.
I understand the concerns about mixing lineages. I might be wrong but seems like Tibetans seem less concerned about this than Western sanghas. Tsoknyi Rinpoche had Krishna Das in at least one of his retreats. I am reading Lama Yeshe's "The Bliss of Inner Fire" and he freely uses terms like Hatha Yoga and Kundalini throughout the book.
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Re: Tibetan Qigong?

Post by bryandavis »

wiseowl wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:21 am
bryandavis wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:54 pm This same event has Krinshan Das singing kirtan. I actually like Krishna Das and his kirtan, but all of this mixing up lineage and method and bringing into the fold of the collective sangha is just irresponsible IMHO.
I understand the concerns about mixing lineages. I might be wrong but seems like Tibetans seem less concerned about this than Western sanghas. Tsoknyi Rinpoche had Krishna Das in at least one of his retreats. I am reading Lama Yeshe's "The Bliss of Inner Fire" and he freely uses terms like Hatha Yoga and Kundalini throughout the book.
Qigong is great. Excellent for energy cultivation, physical and mental health etc.
For me, I don't have horse in the race. I have a stable practice, have no doubts about where I am at, what I have received etc. It more of an open question of how can organizers, who have been exposed to dharma for years no see the red flags in the questionable lineage of this qigong "master."
There is close to zero chance of the claims made about the lineage and time spent with the teacher that is mentioned.

As far as the collected talks in "bliss of inner fire" Lama Yeshe using Kundalini interchangeably with tummo doesn't make them correlate. Many teachers say things to appease their audience and bring some kind ecumenical harmony, when in private they are much quicker to dismiss the notions.

Not mixing lineages and views by following a path and its traditions, nuances, terminology, methods etc, is sort of critical in the Vajrayana path.

Krishna Das is good draw, can definitely bring in some all embracing Sanatana Dharma types to the centers.
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