Refining a Meditative Practice

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
Parsifal
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Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy mentioned by Zhuangzi. I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now on. In the meanwhile, I came to think it no option but to try even a kind of spiritualistic meditation like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy mentioned by Zhuangzi. I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now on. In the meanwhile, I came to think it no option but to try even a kind of spiritualistic meditation like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
I’m not quite sure, are you looking for a philosophy, mental/emotional health, or both?

What motivates your meditation practice?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Astus
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Astus »

Since you're OK with zazen, have you studied any zen teachings, like those of Dogen?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy mentioned by Zhuangzi. I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now on. In the meanwhile, I came to think it no option but to try even a kind of spiritualistic meditation like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
What about Bodhicitta which is infinitely more meaningful than western intellectual philosophy

Being someone who benefits others rather than just engaging with ideation which has its place of course
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy…
but?
Buddhism and Chinese philosophy are logical
I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade
really?
Where are you taking it?!? :rolling:
and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now
I think “from now on” is a problem. Everything is constantly changing. And precisely what Buddhism teaches is that attaching to “from now on” is basically a subtle type of self-grasping /ego clinging which all that zazen should be helping you to cut through. It’s like, “okay, here is some kind of thing that I feel safe with or that is all nice and squared off and rational and logical, which fits nicely into my intellectual or spiritual comfort zone”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:20 pm
Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy mentioned by Zhuangzi. I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now on. In the meanwhile, I came to think it no option but to try even a kind of spiritualistic meditation like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
What about Bodhicitta which is infinitely more meaningful than western intellectual philosophy

Being someone who benefits others rather than just engaging with ideation which has its place of course
Thank you for your suggestion in reply to my question. As I mentioned, I have practiced and learned Buddhism for almost a decade in spite of not having followed a genuine master. So far I tried to continue such practices without doubting and feeling unsatisfied as if they were something given to me as a fatal lesson, but I have always been asking myself if I could keep Bodhicitta in mind which resulted in a negative answer. I came to think recently since beginning reading western philosophy books again that my existence regardless of denied by idea about nothing still runs in front of my substance. If so, I think it not always essential to conduct my way of living in compliance with Bodhicitta. At the same time, I think it essential to make myself personally enlightened first as far as possible. This is principal part of why I came to need a new meditative practice compliment to what I am doing now. Does my logic in poor English make sense to you? Thanks a lot in advance.
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:41 pm
Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy mentioned by Zhuangzi. I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now on. In the meanwhile, I came to think it no option but to try even a kind of spiritualistic meditation like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
I’m not quite sure, are you looking for a philosophy, mental/emotional health, or both?

What motivates your meditation practice?
What I am looking for is anything enabling me to live my rest of life calmly and humbly, not sticking to its means. I already have lost almost everything I stuck to but I still hate mentally disturbed from everything due probably to holding my selfishness possibly arising from my unconsciousness or subconsciousness. So, I want to find any effective solution to make myself free from selfishness or egoism. Thank you.
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

Astus wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:48 pm Since you're OK with zazen, have you studied any zen teachings, like those of Dogen?
Yes, I have been practicing Soto style Zazen for almost a decade everyday despite short time around 10 to 15 minutes. Despite concurrently being one of Truth Pure Land Buddhist, I first took an interest in Zen especially Soto sect principally via YouTube video consisting of around 150-story series audible lesson by one of famous and enthusiastic Zen monk named Kosho Uchiyama succeeding Kodo Sawaki both of who is known as Dogen Zen fundamentalist in the 20th century. Their feature is to insist of inseparability between practice and enlightenment by undergoing through living one's individual life actually as it is. Contemporary Germany-born monk, Noelke Muho expresses such a manner as "Zazen practices to be Zazen" in his metaphor. So far, I have implemented this way of Zen practice for a long time but I seem to fall in a fatal trap. Should I refrain from any practices other than Zen? I want find any clue to make myself free from any noise or disturbance from outside.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:35 pm
Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am I have been rather a logic-oriented person for nearly half a century since a high school student but I am gradually becoming one taking an interest in Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy…
but?
Buddhism and Chinese philosophy are logical
I make it a rule to carry out Zazen everyday for almost a decade
really?
Where are you taking it?!? :rolling:
and to read books relevant to these kinds, thanks to which can seemingly help me understand how to live meaningfully to some extent. However, recently I happened to restart reading books as to western philosophy such as existentialism and structurism both of which I had once given up in my young days due to too difficult to understand. As a result, I got confused with based on what belief or principle I should live from now
I think “from now on” is a problem. Everything is constantly changing. And precisely what Buddhism teaches is that attaching to “from now on” is basically a subtle type of self-grasping /ego clinging which all that zazen should be helping you to cut through. It’s like, “okay, here is some kind of thing that I feel safe with or that is all nice and squared off and rational and logical, which fits nicely into my intellectual or spiritual comfort zone”
Thank you for your comment. I think both Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy are said to be rather intuitive than logical in comparison with western philosophy. While I have been practicing Zazen for almost a decade everyday by attracting its being simple and concurrently profoundness to the contrary, it is a fact that I am annoyed with various noises from outside , due probably to my ego which I have been trying to remove from me for a long time. So I came to think it possibly helpful for me to adopt other meditation to prevent me from being exposed from the noises.
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Astus
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:40 amSo far, I have implemented this way of Zen practice for a long time but I seem to fall in a fatal trap. Should I refrain from any practices other than Zen? I want find any clue to make myself free from any noise or disturbance from outside.
An advice to fit one's personal situation needs to be from someone who knows and understands it, and at the same time knows ways to help. Other than that you need to see for yourself to apply the general teachings to your particular case. Zazen, as dropping body and mind, is the ultimate sword of wisdom to cut all entanglements of the misconceptions of self and belonging to a self. However, if it's not a tool one can wield, there are many other approaches to take, one just needs to find and train in the appropriate method. Still, if one can see how from a single attractive thought whole worlds can bloom, it's possible to not perpetuate the first thought. In order to be motivated to let it go it's good to recognise the drawbacks of delighting in that idea.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

Astus wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:11 pm
Parsifal wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:40 amSo far, I have implemented this way of Zen practice for a long time but I seem to fall in a fatal trap. Should I refrain from any practices other than Zen? I want find any clue to make myself free from any noise or disturbance from outside.
An advice to fit one's personal situation needs to be from someone who knows and understands it, and at the same time knows ways to help. Other than that you need to see for yourself to apply the general teachings to your particular case. Zazen, as dropping body and mind, is the ultimate sword of wisdom to cut all entanglements of the misconceptions of self and belonging to a self. However, if it's not a tool one can wield, there are many other approaches to take, one just needs to find and train in the appropriate method. Still, if one can see how from a single attractive thought whole worlds can bloom, it's possible to not perpetuate the first thought. In order to be motivated to let it go it's good to recognise the drawbacks of delighting in that idea.
Thank you very much for your suggestion again. In my case, I do not intend to give up on or significantly change my Zen practice. As well, I do not get skeptical about doing Zazen since Soto Zen teaches us doing its practice being completely equivalent with getting enlightened. However, I cannot but be tempted to another meditation scheme to make me mentally more affluent and stabler due to still my feeling like adhering to my ego. To help such myself, I want to try something even only a little bit useful.
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Astus
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 am However, I cannot but be tempted to another meditation scheme to make me mentally more affluent and stabler due to still my feeling like adhering to my ego. To help such myself, I want to try something even only a little bit useful.
If zazen is insufficient, then it's good to first be clear about what is missing for you. There are some more extensive classical teachings on zazen that address various difficulties in one's practice, like those of Keizan and Menzan. You may also look into traditional meditation manuals that discuss various hindrances and their antidotes, like The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation and the Essentials for Practicing Calming-and-Insight and Dhyana Meditation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Yoga movements would help.

There’s a reason that it’s included in the most inner Yanas of Buddhadharma.

Of course for Buddhadharma, Yoga is in the context of the realization of Emptiness (that is inseparable from Clarity; for a
Sutra example of the latter, see the Pabhassara Sutta and the Lalitavistara Sutra).

And apparently the oldest Buddhist text on Yoga movements predates Patanjali. The Dzogchen Community of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu even allows for people to practice the basic level of Vairo-khrul-khor, without having to have received transmission.

Even if you don’t get the entire kit & kaboodle without transmission, it is infinitely better than nothing; and still also shows elements that you wouldn’t get from ‘Hindu’ Yoga.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

Astus wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:29 pm
Parsifal wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:44 am However, I cannot but be tempted to another meditation scheme to make me mentally more affluent and stabler due to still my feeling like adhering to my ego. To help such myself, I want to try something even only a little bit useful.
If zazen is insufficient, then it's good to first be clear about what is missing for you. There are some more extensive classical teachings on zazen that address various difficulties in one's practice, like those of Keizan and Menzan. You may also look into traditional meditation manuals that discuss various hindrances and their antidotes, like The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation and the Essentials for Practicing Calming-and-Insight and Dhyana Meditation.
As per your suggestion, I would like check out those references to check if I am missing something necessary for my Zazen. By the way, I am a little bit surprised at your knowing Antaiji's website which is not so famous even in Japan and is known by once Kosho Uchiyama was there.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Sādhaka wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:45 pm Yoga movements would help.

There’s a reason that it’s included in the most inner Yanas of Buddhadharma.

Of course for Buddhadharma, Yoga is in the context of the realization of Emptiness (that is inseparable from Clarity; for a
Sutra example of the latter, see the Pabhassara Sutta and the Lalitavistara Sutra).

And apparently the oldest Buddhist text on Yoga movements predates Patanjali. The Dzogchen Community of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu even allows for people to practice the basic level of Vairo-khrul-khor, without having to have received transmission.

Even if you don’t get the entire kit & kaboodle without transmission, it is infinitely better than nothing; and still also shows elements that you wouldn’t get from ‘Hindu’ Yoga.
Thank your for your suggestion. Although it is likely to take me not a little time to understand what these references mention, I would try to do so. However, while there are not a few terms that I see for the first time and seemingly hard to understand, is it necessary to comprehend such difficult ideas prior to proceeding with Yoga meditation?
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Sādhaka
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Sādhaka »

What I was referring to was the more physical aspects of Sanatana Dharma Yoga, as like in Ashtanga and Hatha Yoga, that are also found in Buddhadharma as I’d said above; and it sounds like you’re thinking more along the lines of Raja Yoga, Samkhya, Advaita, Vedanta, leading to Kevala or Kaivalya Mukti or Moksha, etc.

These things are interesting, and you could try studying and practicing them; although I doubt that there’s anything there that you couldn’t get from keeping at Buddhist meditation i.e. Shamatha and Vipasyana.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Sādhaka wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:02 pm What I was referring to was the more physical aspects of Sanatana Dharma Yoga, as like in Ashtanga and Hatha Yoga, that are also found in Buddhadharma as I’d said above; and it sounds like you’re thinking more along the lines of Raja Yoga, Samkhya, Advaita, Vedanta, leading to Kevala or Kaivalya Mukti or Moksha, etc.

These things are interesting, and you could try studying and practicing them; although I doubt that there’s anything there that you couldn’t get from keeping at Buddhist meditation i.e. Shamatha and Vipasyana.
Thank you for your advice. However, frankly speaking, what you told me was too difficult for me to understand. Although I took an interest in Buddhism long ago, I have not yet encounter an opportunity to touch Indian and Tibetan ideas written in western languages including English because Japanese people learn Buddhism ideas via once translated into Chinese and imported to Japan. Hence, it is quite rare to even see those terms written in English. Taking account of such background, could you recommend me any introductive references for Yoga suitable to an entry level learner like me? In terms of these backgrounds, Japan is historically a long established Buddhism country indeed but she is still likely one of local regions compared with other countries cherishing original versions of what Buddha mentioned.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:34 am By the way, I am a little bit surprised at your knowing Antaiji's website which is not so famous even in Japan and is known by once Kosho Uchiyama was there.
Antaiji is very well known in the west among Zen students.

:anjali:
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:51 am Thank you for your suggestion in reply to my question. As I mentioned, I have practiced and learned Buddhism for almost a decade in spite of not having followed a genuine master. So far I tried to continue such practices without doubting and feeling unsatisfied as if they were something given to me as a fatal lesson, but I have always been asking myself if I could keep Bodhicitta in mind which resulted in a negative answer. I came to think recently since beginning reading western philosophy books again that my existence regardless of denied by idea about nothing still runs in front of my substance. If so, I think it not always essential to conduct my way of living in compliance with Bodhicitta. At the same time, I think it essential to make myself personally enlightened first as far as possible. This is principal part of why I came to need a new meditative practice compliment to what I am doing now.
Bodhicitta is essentially the first step in the path to Buddhist enlightenment. Having said that it can already be too much for lots of people. But basically Bodhicitta can be summarized to start with as a mind of kindness. This then can develop more fully. This is also true in Zen (although Zen has been criticized as having relatively less emphasis on bodhicitta - this is not what I experienced when I was a full-time Zen student [full-time but with a job in a city and not a monastic in a temple] although I now practice in the Tibetan lineages).

You say that you sit zazen daily. Different people have different zazen. Zazen *WILL* awaken one to bodhicitta but you will also need interaction with a Zen teaching for this to reliably manifest itself. The thing is that different people will awaken to different degrees with different teachers so it is a very personal issue. For some people without access to a Zen teacher zazen can become "cold" and "alienating".

Here is my main Zen teacher explaining how to sit zazen:

Here is an explanation from the Hazy Moon Zen Center:
In this video note that the counting and the hand movement are exaggerated in order to demonstrate what is going on as the person counts when sitting. All the counting is internal, in ones mind and there is no hand movement. Also usually the instruction is to focus on the tip of the nose in the sense that this is where people perceive the interaction of the breath with the body (where the breath enters the body).

I include these so that you might check if you have possibly missed something in your practice.

Another possibility is chanting practice, nembutsu.

:anjali:
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »


I include these so that you might check if you have possibly missed something in your practice.

Another possibility is chanting practice, nembutsu.

:anjali:
Thank you for your advice. You seem to have something to do with Antaiji judging from your nickname, don't you? It recently began to attract Japanese people's attention with both some TV programs focusing on its activity and Muho monk's books together with his unique personal history. In my case, I happened to know him with one of his books and I found Antaiji's name in it. Since then, I made it a habit to listen to Kosho Uchiyama's speech via YouTube almost everyday for a couple of years. I have also read books written by both Sawaki and Uchiyama, so I know basic manner of Zazen to some extent. Especially what I got most impressed was Uchiyama's explanation on "Kaku-soku", its Kanji character meta-phrased into "awakened by tactile". According to Uchiyama, even though people are prone to imagine various stuffs amid Zazen, it is unavoidable to fall in such mind a status instead of the people must remind themselves to notice as they are just chasing something illusionary. I always try to recall this "Kaku-soku" when I practice Zazen in my room.

By the way, I know some Soto monks near my home via studying Zen related ancient books and appreciating Buddhism art. On the occasions of such meetings, I try to learn Zen spirit from them, but they seem prone to stress their ideas with words written in book instead of their own experiences or opinion. It is really a shame that I cannot take advantage of such a valuable opportunity.
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