Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

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Giovanni
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

Thats punarbhava…but predictive text didn’t like it..
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cyril
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:40 pm Thats punarbhava…but predictive text didn’t like it..
That's just semantics. Which aspects of Dr. Stevenson's work are incompatible, in your view, with the doctrine of Punarbhava?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

To understand ‘rebirth’ in the Buddhist context, one must include the concept of anatman (no self, not self). Buddhism talks about arising or becoming arising or becoming due to previous causes and conditions and not about a self that leaves one body when that body dies and enters another body being conceived. Even the bardo teachings, I think, are often misunderstood this way (but it’s not an inconvenient misunderstanding, so people just go with it) because they describe a subtle consciousness, but this too has to be understood within the context of anatman.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:01 am To understand ‘rebirth’ in the Buddhist context, one must include the concept of anatman (no self, not self). Buddhism talks about arising or becoming arising or becoming due to previous causes and conditions and not about a self that leaves one body when that body dies and enters another body being conceived. Even the bardo teachings, I think, are often misunderstood this way (but it’s not an inconvenient misunderstanding, so people just go with it) because they describe a subtle consciousness, but this too has to be understood within the context of anatman.
Yes, that's Buddhism 101, but I don't see how is relevant to the discussion. No one implied that gandhabba or the Bardo being is atman. Dr. Stevenson does not speculate on the mechanics of the reincarnation process so he doesn't touch on the idea of self or soul or whatever. None of his cases imply the existence of a permanent self; they are all about children remembering and identifying with a previous personality/ existence. Essentially not different from how a skilled meditator would remember his past life according to Sramanaphalasutta, " in my immediately previous life I had such and such name, I belonged to such and such clan from such and such caste" etc. Even cases like Jasbir's do not imply the idea of atman (although I am aware some people might see it this way).
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Dhammanando »

Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:47 pm Given the fact that I have never seen a serious Dharma student cite Stevenson’s work the thread seems to be something of a “man of straw.”
Oh, I've seen quite a few. It puzzles me that they take Stevenson seriously, but nonetheless they do.

First there was his British Buddhist collaborator, Francis Story. Then we have Bhikkhus Brahmavamso, Sujāto, Brahmali and Anālayo. The last-named cites him at least fifty times in his Rebirth in Early Buddhism and Current Research.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:30 am
Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:47 pm Given the fact that I have never seen a serious Dharma student cite Stevenson’s work the thread seems to be something of a “man of straw.”
Oh, I've seen quite a few. It puzzles me that they take Stevenson seriously, but nonetheless they do.

First there was his British Buddhist collaborator, Francis Story. Then we have Bhikkhus Brahmavamso, Sujāto, Brahmali and Anālayo. The last-named cites him at least fifty times in his Rebirth in Early Buddhism and Current Research.
Thank you Bhante. I should have made my post clearer by saying that I have never seen a serious Vajrayana student cite Stevenson in a positive way.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Dhammanando »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:33 am Thank you Bhante. I should have made my post clearer by saying that I have never seen a serious Vajrayana student cite Stevenson in a positive way.
Curiously, I myself have seen Stevenson cited far more often by Vajrayanists than by Theravadins. :lol:

In the case of the Dalai Lama, Jeffrey Hopkins and Matthieu Ricard the citations tend to be very cautious and tentative, while in that of B. Alan Wallace, Tulku Thondup and Thubten Chodron they're every bit as enthusiastic as Brahmavamso and Sujāto – overlooking all the many holes in Stevenson's methodology and treating his putative evidence almost as if it amounted to an incontrovertible proof of rebirth.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:24 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:33 am Thank you Bhante. I should have made my post clearer by saying that I have never seen a serious Vajrayana student cite Stevenson in a positive way.
Curiously, I myself have seen Stevenson cited far more often by Vajrayanists than by Theravadins. :lol:

In the case of the Dalai Lama, Jeffrey Hopkins and Matthieu Ricard the citations tend to be very cautious and tentative, while in that of B. Alan Wallace, Tulku Thondup and Thubten Chodron they're every bit as enthusiastic as Brahmavamso and Sujāto – overlooking all the many holes in Stevenson's methodology and treating his putative evidence almost as if it amounted to an incontrovertible proof of rebirth.
Clearly Bhante we read different material..😎🙏🏻
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

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cyril wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:26 pm - Marja Liisa Kaartinen - her previous reincarnation died 6 months prior to her birth
Babies being born at 6 to 8 months are not that rare, so this is possible (pre-mature birth).
- Wolfgang Neurath - previous reincarnation died 2 months prior to his birth
- Einar Johnson - presumed previous reincarnation died 2 weeks prior to his birth
Yes, these would be impossible, according to just about every reincarnation / rebirth doctrine.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

DNS wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:27 pm
cyril wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:26 pm - Marja Liisa Kaartinen - her previous reincarnation died 6 months prior to her birth
Babies being born at 6 to 8 months are not that rare, so this is possible (pre-mature birth).
- Wolfgang Neurath - previous reincarnation died 2 months prior to his birth
- Einar Johnson - presumed previous reincarnation died 2 weeks prior to his birth
Yes, these would be impossible, according to just about every reincarnation / rebirth doctrine.
A day is one Earth spin. A year is how long it takes the Earth to travel around the Sun.
What difference would time make as far as the conditions for rebirth are concerned? Consciousness is already going through a constant re-becoming process all the time anyway.
Hours in a dream may take only minutes to occur in terms of brain activity. So, what kind of clock or calendar matters most?
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:32 pm
Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
I have yet to meet someone whose disbelief in rebirth isn’t ultimately a disbelief in the rebirth of some kind of self (which is not what Buddhism teaches anyway).
Maybe you did, you cannot know. :)

Best wishes
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

The issue here is that, according to the Buddhist teachings, there should be an interval of at least nine months between the death of the previous human incarnation and the birth of the new one, or at least 7 months for infants born preterm;

Bardo Thodol if I'm not mistaken talks about a 49 days span. Not even 2 months.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Malcolm »

Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:46 am Stevensons methodology was dismissed even by scientists with a Buddhist belief system.
They are pseudo science and should be discounted from any serious discussion of the actual Dharmic concept of Rebirth.
They are more akin to populist “Hindu” beliefs.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Sādhaka »

Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:03 pm Bardo Thodol if I'm not mistaken talks about a 49 days span. Not even 2 months.

I’ve heard one of two things—or maybe both, I can’t remember exactly—that these 49 days are symbolic, and/or that time in the Bardos vs here is different meaning that 49 days here is not going to be the same as 49 days in the Bardo.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:14 pm
Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:03 pm Bardo Thodol if I'm not mistaken talks about a 49 days span. Not even 2 months.

I’ve heard one of two things—or maybe both, I can’t remember exactly—that these 49 days are symbolic, and/or that time in the Bardos vs here is different meaning that 49 days here is not going to be the same as 49 days in the Bardo.
It may vary, for sure, dont know the reasons, but that will be the basic standard.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:00 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:32 pm
Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
I have yet to meet someone whose disbelief in rebirth isn’t ultimately a disbelief in the rebirth of some kind of self (which is not what Buddhism teaches anyway).
Maybe you did, you cannot know. :)

Best wishes
I mean, in terms of any discussion I’ve ever had, what they didn’t believe in was some variation on the rebirth of a self, even if they professed and otherwise supported the doctrine of anatman.
The notion of ‘self’ is very hard to really abandon and very easy to rephrase as something compatible with Buddhist teachings.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:03 pm The issue here is that, according to the Buddhist teachings, there should be an interval of at least nine months between the death of the previous human incarnation and the birth of the new one, or at least 7 months for infants born preterm;

Bardo Thodol if I'm not mistaken talks about a 49 days span. Not even 2 months.
Do you suppose all the realms rotate our Sun every 365 days? How long is a month to a hungry ghost?
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:58 pm
Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:00 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:32 pm
I have yet to meet someone whose disbelief in rebirth isn’t ultimately a disbelief in the rebirth of some kind of self (which is not what Buddhism teaches anyway).
Maybe you did, you cannot know. :)

Best wishes
I mean, in terms of any discussion I’ve ever had, what they didn’t believe in was some variation on the rebirth of a self, even if they professed and otherwise supported the doctrine of anatman.
The notion of ‘self’ is very hard to really abandon and very easy to rephrase as something compatible with Buddhist teachings.
I agree fully with that.

But I also disbelieve in a compact karma continuum that goes inside a new born body at birth.

I can believe that old memories (from other bodies) are accesible somehow in deep meditation, I could even have some experiences leading to that, not clear, but not impossible.

But that is different from rebirth even for a compact karma continuum
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:05 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:01 pm
Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:03 pm The issue here is that, according to the Buddhist teachings, there should be an interval of at least nine months between the death of the previous human incarnation and the birth of the new one, or at least 7 months for infants born preterm;

Bardo Thodol if I'm not mistaken talks about a 49 days span. Not even 2 months.
Do you suppose all the realms rotate our Sun every 365 days? How long is a month to a hungry ghost?
I dont suppose anything at all, I only tell you what buddhism says. I do not even believe in rebirth. :alien:
I will wager that what you don’t believe in is rebirth of some kind of “self”.
Buddhism doesn’t teach the rebirth of a “self”.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:23 pm
Tao wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:05 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:01 pm

Do you suppose all the realms rotate our Sun every 365 days? How long is a month to a hungry ghost?
I dont suppose anything at all, I only tell you what buddhism says. I do not even believe in rebirth. :alien:
I will wager that what you don’t believe in is rebirth of some kind of “self”.
I dont wage, but I answered two messages above on that matter.
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