What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

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hello225123
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:15 am Mahayana Sutras often use hyperbole to make a point.

It is up you what sort of interpretation to make, but as (I’m assuming you being fairly young and new to Dharma) you are not an expert, or even particularly trained in the various ways to interpret them, you should probably ask an expert. I.e. a teacher you trust.

Understanding Sutra on a number of levels involves years of study, contemplation, consultation with people who know context, content and meaning better than you. Finding those people and getting their take is way more productive than trying to interpret them yourself with really limited exposure to Buddhist thought.

I know because I started reading them at your age, before the Internet really existed, and I had the same issues.

I understand, but then is the sentence of repercussions of killing your parents also a hyperbole? Because the repercussions are described in the same way, so how do we know which sentences are supposed to be taken literally and which as a hyperbole? :/

Asking this because there are no teachers in my country
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hello225123 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:43 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:15 am Mahayana Sutras often use hyperbole to make a point.

It is up you what sort of interpretation to make, but as (I’m assuming you being fairly young and new to Dharma) you are not an expert, or even particularly trained in the various ways to interpret them, you should probably ask an expert. I.e. a teacher you trust.

Understanding Sutra on a number of levels involves years of study, contemplation, consultation with people who know context, content and meaning better than you. Finding those people and getting their take is way more productive than trying to interpret them yourself with really limited exposure to Buddhist thought.

I know because I started reading them at your age, before the Internet really existed, and I had the same issues.

I understand, but then is the sentence of repercussions of killing your parents also a hyperbole? Because the repercussions are described in the same way, so how do we know which sentences are supposed to be taken literally and which as a hyperbole? :/

Asking this because there are no teachers in my country
Find one to ask online maybe, or read a commentary on the sutra. Are you having a hard time with thinking about going to hell all the time? That can be a separate psychological issue.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Sangyedorje »

I’m gonna side with Johnny Dangerous on this one too. Before I go into this, I’m gonna say straight up you’re not going to hell lmao. This absolutely makes no sense and is the kind of stuff people leave Christianity for - unjust punishments. The Buddha himself said that you will go to Avici for only those 5 things (killing your parents, an Arahat, causing a Buddha to bleed, or creating a schism in the Sangha). How is making an off coloured joke at a party equivalent to any of this? You’re gonna fine, keep being a good human being and you’ll be fine.

Now granted, I remember when I was 18 and thought messing with Dakini practices was a good idea and went crazy because of fear they’d kill me. Here’s my advice to you: recognize that as long as youre a good person, you aren’t going to hell - plain and simple. Secondly, if those thoughts and worries ever pop up, remember step one. But, don’t try to push it away. Acknowledge the worry and be like “huh” and let it deep back it, then let go. This applies for everything in life btw…

Hope that could help.
hello225123
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Sangyedorje wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:00 am I’m gonna side with Johnny Dangerous on this one too. Before I go into this, I’m gonna say straight up you’re not going to hell lmao. This absolutely makes no sense and is the kind of stuff people leave Christianity for - unjust punishments. The Buddha himself said that you will go to Avici for only those 5 things (killing your parents, an Arahat, causing a Buddha to bleed, or creating a schism in the Sangha). How is making an off coloured joke at a party equivalent to any of this? You’re gonna fine, keep being a good human being and you’ll be fine.

Now granted, I remember when I was 18 and thought messing with Dakini practices was a good idea and went crazy because of fear they’d kill me. Here’s my advice to you: recognize that as long as youre a good person, you aren’t going to hell - plain and simple. Secondly, if those thoughts and worries ever pop up, remember step one. But, don’t try to push it away. Acknowledge the worry and be like “huh” and let it deep back it, then let go. This applies for everything in life btw…

Hope that could help.

I understand, it doesn't seem fair at all but one of the Buddhist teachings is that samsara isn't fair. You could also rationalize the amount of bad karma generated because slandering Buddhism in front of others would bring because by giving others a bad view of Buddhism you are keeping them in samsara for who knows how much longer.
Besides, if we take scriptures as an authority, so what if it doesn't make sense? Amitabha in his 18th vow said :
If I should attain Buddhahood, yet sentient beings of the ten directions who aspire to be reborn in my land with wholehearted faith and joy, even having just ten thoughts [of my name], would not be reborn there, may I not attain perfect enlightenment. The only exceptions are those who have committed the five great violations and those who have slandered the right Dharma.
Just like Ksitigarbha, Amitabha is putting the slander of dharma on the same level as five great violations, like killing one's parents
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hello225123 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:27 pm
Sangyedorje wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:00 am I’m gonna side with Johnny Dangerous on this one too. Before I go into this, I’m gonna say straight up you’re not going to hell lmao. This absolutely makes no sense and is the kind of stuff people leave Christianity for - unjust punishments. The Buddha himself said that you will go to Avici for only those 5 things (killing your parents, an Arahat, causing a Buddha to bleed, or creating a schism in the Sangha). How is making an off coloured joke at a party equivalent to any of this? You’re gonna fine, keep being a good human being and you’ll be fine.

Now granted, I remember when I was 18 and thought messing with Dakini practices was a good idea and went crazy because of fear they’d kill me. Here’s my advice to you: recognize that as long as youre a good person, you aren’t going to hell - plain and simple. Secondly, if those thoughts and worries ever pop up, remember step one. But, don’t try to push it away. Acknowledge the worry and be like “huh” and let it deep back it, then let go. This applies for everything in life btw…

Hope that could help.

I understand, it doesn't seem fair at all but one of the Buddhist teachings is that samsara isn't fair. You could also rationalize the amount of bad karma generated because slandering Buddhism in front of others would bring because by giving others a bad view of Buddhism you are keeping them in samsara for who knows how much longer.
Besides, if we take scriptures as an authority, so what if it doesn't make sense? Amitabha in his 18th vow said :
If I should attain Buddhahood, yet sentient beings of the ten directions who aspire to be reborn in my land with wholehearted faith and joy, even having just ten thoughts [of my name], would not be reborn there, may I not attain perfect enlightenment. The only exceptions are those who have committed the five great violations and those who have slandered the right Dharma.
Just like Ksitigarbha, Amitabha is putting the slander of dharma on the same level as five great violations, like killing one's parents
Firstly, It’s really up to you whether you want to take this literalist reading of sutras or not. I think you are better off dropping such a neurotic approach to them.

Secondly, “slandering the Dharma” IMO connotes something much more significant than some dumb drunk talk.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Disrespecting the three jewels in front of others isn’t as bad as disrespecting others in front of the three jewels.
EMPTIFUL.
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Archie2009
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Archie2009 »

It's not like the OP is guilty of say drawing blood from a Buddha.

Perhaps he should relax since he obviously regrets the act of slander and wouldn't act this way again.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Soma999 »

Tenzin Palmo, in one of her book, recall how she asked her guru about all those threats to go to hell. She felt like she would go to hell considering all what is said. Her guru said all those threats are strongly exagerated with the aims to prevent people from doing bad stuff, and that going to those hells is in fact very difficult.

So, don’t worry, don’t be scared. The three jewels are « cool », full of love, understanding, consideration.

Know also slandering the dharma is quiet something else that what you did. It would more be like destroying faith in people, breaking up sanghas, putting true guru in jail with false accusations, preaching a false view of emptiness to legitimate murder and so on…

What you did is just basic teenage nonsense, that nearly all teenage do at a moment or another.

Relax. You are just a human being with light and darkness. Like all of us. Nothing to worry about.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Archie2009 »

:good:

I should have used disrespecting, the OP's own choice of words, instead of slander in my precious post. My bad.
hello225123
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:33 am Tenzin Palmo, in one of her book, recall how she asked her guru about all those threats to go to hell. She felt like she would go to hell considering all what is said. Her guru said all those threats are strongly exagerated with the aims to prevent people from doing bad stuff, and that going to those hells is in fact very difficult.

So, don’t worry, don’t be scared. The three jewels are « cool », full of love, understanding, consideration.

Know also slandering the dharma is quiet something else that what you did. It would more be like destroying faith in people, breaking up sanghas, putting true guru in jail with false accusations, preaching a false view of emptiness to legitimate murder and so on…

What you did is just basic teenage nonsense, that nearly all teenage do at a moment or another.

Relax. You are just a human being with light and darkness. Like all of us. Nothing to worry about.
But what about acts like killing one's parents/arahat and their repercussions? Are the statements about the repercussions of these acts exaggerations too? How can we know which statements are exaggerations and which ones aren't?
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Ayu »

hello225123 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:52 pm

But what about acts like killing one's parents/arahat and their repercussions? Are the statements about the repercussions of these acts exaggerations too? How can we know which statements are exaggerations and which ones aren't?
I think, these are extremely negative deeds.
So, still: relax.
Nobody tells you to kill your father and not worry.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Archie2009 »

Karma is probably near inexorable in case of such extremely negative deeds. Still, the OP's actions as stated in post 1 are not in this category.

We shouldn't take a Christian fear of eternal damnation with us into Dharma practice. If after regret and doing purification you are still petrified, it's your own personal psychological baggage that's the issue.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Soma999 »

Stop thinking so much, you are tormenting yourself.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Mdg137 »

OP, I don't know if you're still worried about this, and I am late to the party here, but first of all, drunken stupidity won't put you in hell. Even if it did, it is worth remembering that in the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha's jealous cousin Devadatta was given a prediction of future Buddhahood by the Buddha. Devadatta was guilty of two of the five heinous crimes: Attempting to kill a Buddha and creating a schism within the Sangha. Ironically, his actions, and the Buddha's prediction, can be viewed as an inspiration to practice, because if someone who does these crimes is predicted to be a Buddha, certainly we, who are nowhere near as bad, can practice in earnest to do the same.

Others in the thread have suggested purification practice, which I think is a great idea. While I do not know much about specific practices (I am new as well), one thing I do often when I feel I have said something disrespectful to the Three Jewels is I correct the record: I go to the person I said this to, I explain simply where I was wrong, and correct my speech. This way, the person can walk away with corrected information about Buddhism, and may not be steered away from it by my former words. This practice also helps develop humility, as it is a concrete case of admitting one's wrongs and repenting for them.

Again, to be very clear, you aren't going to hell. But just saying that, may not be enough to assuage your negative feelings about the situation, and negative feelings can lead to despair, which hinders practice. This is a fact which I have encountered again and again in my own life, and not just in Buddhism, but in general as well. So maybe just telling your friends that what you said was wrong can help ease your suffering.

I hope you are doing well and have found peace with yourself. Remember, we are students. We take the Buddha as our teacher, the Dharma as our curriculum, and the Sangha as our classmates. Because this is a process of learning and practice, nobody expects you to be perfect. Practice makes perfect. If it were itself perfect, it wouldn't be practice.

:buddha2:
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by kirtu »

Archie2009 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:25 pm Karma is probably near inexorable in case of such extremely negative deeds. Still, the OP's actions as stated in post 1 are not in this category.
All karma, including the Five Offenses of Immediate Retribution/Five Heinous Acts/Offenses/Sins (actions that result in rebirth in the lowest level of hells [Avicii Hell]) can be purified. The reason people are reborn in the lowest hells is because they don't purify them after doing them. If they did even attempt to purify them there would be a different outcome (although how different can depend).
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by kirtu »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:18 pm About a month ago I was at my friend's birthday party and I got very drunk. I was a Buddhist for about 6 months then and attended my city Zen center weekly. I hadn't drank alcohol for about one and a half years, but at that point, I was very depressed and anxious so unfortunately, I didn't care much.
...
I was very disrespectful and I was making a joke out of Buddhism and disrespecting Buddha and Dharma, giving others a bad outlook on Buddhism by doing that. I very much regret doing all ...
You regret it. That's the main purification esp. in Zen.

You are 16. It's basically just a silly teenage thing.

There is also the general verse of confession and purification which goes like: All the evil karma commited by me since of old (ie over all previous lives), on account of my beginning less greed, anger and confusion (ignorance), born of my body, speech and mind, I now confess and purify them all.

This works because you regret and turn away from these actions.

In Chinese Buddism and Korean Zen there is also repentance through prostration practice (I'm sure this exists in Japanese Zen somewhere but it has never even been mentioned to me - Japanese Zen repentance and purification is basically just oral repentance + true mind change + meditation (because in Zen meditation is always purification + merit accumulation + wisdom).
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by kirtu »

I have also personally found the Sandokai, the Identity of Relative and Absolute, to be purificatory. But that is admittedly a personal thing.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by curtstein »

Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha Sutra - Chap 3, says :
"The Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha then addressed the Holy Mother, saying, "In southern Jambudvipa, the retribution for various sins is as follows: If someone should fail to fulfill his filial duty toward his parents or, at worst, kill or harm them, he will fall into Avici Hell, where he will remain for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release. If someone should shed the blood of a Buddha, ridicule the Three Jewels or fail to respect the sutras, he, also, will fall into Avici Hell, where he will remain for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release. If someone should encroach upon or steal the property of some Buddhist establishment, slander bhiksus or bhiksunis, indulge his carnal lust in a sangharama, or kill or harm others, then he or she will fall into Avici Hell and remain there for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release."

Is there something I can do to avoid going to hell? Will doing prostrations, good deeds, mantras prevent me from going to hell or not? If yes, what would you specifically recommend for me to do?
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The answer might be closer than you realize. One of the central themes of the Ksitigarbha Sutra is the story about when Ksitigarbha was a girl whose mother disparaged Dharma, and her mother was therefore condemned to rebirth in Hell as a result. But through the power of Ksitigarbha's prayers, her mother was liberated from Hell. Ksitigarbha can do the same for you!
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