Self-Ordained Monks (split)
- Leo Rivers
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Self-Ordained Monks (split)
I don't know about ordained but the Bodhisattva Bhumi and Brahma Net sutra both describe self administering a Bodhisattva Vow and getting confirmation in a vision or dream. This is helpfully an alturnitive to meeting a Buddha and recieving a Prediction.
Leo
PS I have both books and have checked it out.
Leo
PS I have both books and have checked it out.
Re: Self-Ordained Monks
That may be the orthodox answer for many, but I don't know that I would dismiss it so quickly, personally.
Historically, there were multiple manners of becoming ordained (historically meaning in part when the Buddha was around). There is of course the formal, extensive manner of having the quorum of monks, the ceremonial aspect, etc, but at times for instance the Buddha would simply say, "Come here" and this would confer full ordination.
In fact, in Perfect Conduct, Dudjom Rinpoche discusses 10 ways of receiving ordination, 9 of which are independent of ritual, including what he calls "self-ordination", another called ordination 'through primordial wisdom realization', another called 'a message' which relates to what I wrote above about the Buddha said to come forward, etc.
Furthermore, in the Mahayana at times it is quite explicitly said that ordination in Mahayana does not necessarily require the external signs. For example, there is a Sutra where Manjushri says, "It is like this, sister. Shaving the hair on your head is not equivalent to going forth as it pertains to the bodhisattva. Why not? Girl, bodhisattvas go forth by means of the effort to eliminate the afflicted mental states of all beings." Similarly, Jigme Lingpa says, "Best are Bodhisattvas who go forth into homelessness, as the Sutra Ornament declares. And yet it is not clearly said that such a discipline, belonging to the Bodhisattva level, should always be embraced through an authentic pratimoksha ritual. For as with Indrabodhi, the intention is supreme for those with previous training and great strength of mind."
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
I would, based on the Vinaya teachings I've received. Yes, there are several different ways people became ordained during the Buddha's lifetime, including one woman who was ordained by receiving a message (since she could not leave her abode). BUT none of these ways was "self-ordination" unless you count the Buddha's own going forth.
Becoming ordained, joining the sangha, is about entering a fellowship or joining a community. It's not a solitary act. It sounds as strange to me as saying a person can self-marry when they don't have a partner!
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Vasubandhu enumerates 10 kinds of ordination in AKB vol II p. 592 :
1. Ordination by oneself, in case of Buddha and the Pratyekabuddhas.
2. Through entry into the path, in the case of the five, that is to say Ajñatakaundinya and his companions.
3. Through the summons: "Come, oh Bhikshu!", in the case of Ajñata.
4. By recognizing the Blessed One as master, as in the case of Mahakashyapa.
5. By satisfying the Blessed One with one's answers, as in the case of Sodayin.
6. By accepting the special obligation of monks and nuns, as in the case of Mahaprajapati.
7. By a messenger, as in the case of Dharmadinna.
8. By an official action as the fifth, that is, ordination before a Sangha of five Bhikshus, as in frontier lands.
9. By ten Bhikshus, as in Madhyadesha.
10. By repeating three times the formula of Refuge, as in the case of sixty Bhadravargas, ordained in a group.
1. Ordination by oneself, in case of Buddha and the Pratyekabuddhas.
2. Through entry into the path, in the case of the five, that is to say Ajñatakaundinya and his companions.
3. Through the summons: "Come, oh Bhikshu!", in the case of Ajñata.
4. By recognizing the Blessed One as master, as in the case of Mahakashyapa.
5. By satisfying the Blessed One with one's answers, as in the case of Sodayin.
6. By accepting the special obligation of monks and nuns, as in the case of Mahaprajapati.
7. By a messenger, as in the case of Dharmadinna.
8. By an official action as the fifth, that is, ordination before a Sangha of five Bhikshus, as in frontier lands.
9. By ten Bhikshus, as in Madhyadesha.
10. By repeating three times the formula of Refuge, as in the case of sixty Bhadravargas, ordained in a group.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
That is sort of the external, exoteric understanding, but there is also an inner, esoteric understanding which can be understood by those who have appropriate merit, basically speaking. FWIW.Bristollad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:45 amI would, based on the Vinaya teachings I've received. Yes, there are several different ways people became ordained during the Buddha's lifetime, including one woman who was ordained by receiving a message (since she could not leave her abode). BUT none of these ways was "self-ordination" unless you count the Buddha's own going forth.
Becoming ordained, joining the sangha, is about entering a fellowship or joining a community. It's not a solitary act. It sounds as strange to me as saying a person can self-marry when they don't have a partner!
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Thanks for sharing the whole list.Aemilius wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:51 am Vasubandhu enumerates 10 kinds of ordination in AKB vol II p. 592 :
1. Ordination by oneself, in case of Buddha and the Pratyekabuddhas.
2. Through entry into the path, in the case of the five, that is to say Ajñatakaundinya and his companions.
3. Through the summons: "Come, oh Bhikshu!", in the case of Ajñata.
4. By recognizing the Blessed One as master, as in the case of Mahakashyapa.
5. By satisfying the Blessed One with one's answers, as in the case of Sodayin.
6. By accepting the special obligation of monks and nuns, as in the case of Mahaprajapati.
7. By a messenger, as in the case of Dharmadinna.
8. By an official action as the fifth, that is, ordination before a Sangha of five Bhikshus, as in frontier lands.
9. By ten Bhikshus, as in Madhyadesha.
10. By repeating three times the formula of Refuge, as in the case of sixty Bhadravargas, ordained in a group.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
There is also a Sutra on Upasaka Precepts, translated by Bhikshuni Shih Heng-ching, BDK Numata Centre,1994. It has 28 chapters, it is a Mahayana sutra and the bodhisattva vow and bodhisattva precepts are included. The precepts are different than the ones in Brahma Net sutra.
https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the- ... -precepts/
"The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts sets forth the moral code to be observed by lay Buddhists. The word upāsaka in the title is Sanskrit for layman. In the sūtra, Sujāta is taught the moral code to be observed by lay followers of Buddhism. Therefore the text is also known as the Sujāta-sūtra after the central figure. Prescribing the moral code as so-called Mahāyāna Precepts or Bodhisattva Precepts,"
https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the- ... -precepts/
"The Sutra on Upāsaka Precepts sets forth the moral code to be observed by lay Buddhists. The word upāsaka in the title is Sanskrit for layman. In the sūtra, Sujāta is taught the moral code to be observed by lay followers of Buddhism. Therefore the text is also known as the Sujāta-sūtra after the central figure. Prescribing the moral code as so-called Mahāyāna Precepts or Bodhisattva Precepts,"
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
- Leo Rivers
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
This is excellent... laypeople oriented.
The Brama Net and
The Precepts section extracted from the Bodhisattva Bhumi
[The Same way the Bodhisattva Bhumi was extracted from the Avatamsaka]
were the two competing and exchangable precepts texts in the 3rd and 4th centuries along the Silk Road and, I think Gandhara.
May I recommend the Bodhisattva Precepts book by RULU at
https://www.authorhouse.com/en/bookstor ... a-Precepts?
It has got all of these and more!
The Brama Net and
The Precepts section extracted from the Bodhisattva Bhumi
[The Same way the Bodhisattva Bhumi was extracted from the Avatamsaka]
were the two competing and exchangable precepts texts in the 3rd and 4th centuries along the Silk Road and, I think Gandhara.
May I recommend the Bodhisattva Precepts book by RULU at
https://www.authorhouse.com/en/bookstor ... a-Precepts?
It has got all of these and more!
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
The Brahma Net sutra does not recommend self-ordination as a primary method:
"After my passing, if a disciple should, with a wholesome mind, wish to receive the Bodhisattva precepts, he may make a vow to do so before the images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and practice repentance before these images for seven days. If he then experiences a vision, he has received the precepts. If he does not, he should continue doing so for fourteen days, twenty-one days, or even a whole year, seeking to witness an auspicious sign. After witnessing such a sign, he could, in front of images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, formally receive the precepts. If he has not witnessed such a sign, although he may have accepted the precepts before the Buddha images, he has not actually received the precepts.
However, the witnessing of auspicious signs is not necessary if the disciple receives the precepts directly from a Dharma Master who has himself received the precepts. Why is this so? It is because this is a case of transmission from Master to Master and therefore all that is required is a mind of utter sincerity and respect on the part of the disciple.
If, within a radius of some three hundred fifty miles, a disciple cannot find a Master capable of conferring the Bodhisattva precepts, he may seek to receive them in front of Buddha or Bodhisattva images. However, he must witness an auspicious sign."
"After my passing, if a disciple should, with a wholesome mind, wish to receive the Bodhisattva precepts, he may make a vow to do so before the images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and practice repentance before these images for seven days. If he then experiences a vision, he has received the precepts. If he does not, he should continue doing so for fourteen days, twenty-one days, or even a whole year, seeking to witness an auspicious sign. After witnessing such a sign, he could, in front of images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, formally receive the precepts. If he has not witnessed such a sign, although he may have accepted the precepts before the Buddha images, he has not actually received the precepts.
However, the witnessing of auspicious signs is not necessary if the disciple receives the precepts directly from a Dharma Master who has himself received the precepts. Why is this so? It is because this is a case of transmission from Master to Master and therefore all that is required is a mind of utter sincerity and respect on the part of the disciple.
If, within a radius of some three hundred fifty miles, a disciple cannot find a Master capable of conferring the Bodhisattva precepts, he may seek to receive them in front of Buddha or Bodhisattva images. However, he must witness an auspicious sign."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
- dawn of peace
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
The Brahma Net sutra is about receiving Bodhisattva vow, not about ordination of monks. one need to receive pratimoksha to become monk. Pratimoksha can only be received from a Sangha in a lineage that track back to the historical Buddha.while Bodhisattva vow can be received from any Buddha or Bodhisattva directly.The pratimosha is Sravakayana vow while Bodhisattva vow is Mahayana vow.receiving Sravakayana vow mean joining the Sangha which need formal ceremony while Mahayana vow have more to do with individual's internal commitment which is less important to receive from a historical lineage.Leo Rivers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:04 am I don't know about ordained but the Bodhisattva Bhumi and Brahma Net sutra both describe self administering a Bodhisattva Vow and getting confirmation in a vision or dream. This is helpfully an alturnitive to meeting a Buddha and receiving a Prediction.
Leo
PS I have both books and have checked it out.
Last edited by dawn of peace on Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Bodhisattva order, bodhisattva-gana or bodhisattva-assembly has been and it still is an important and functioning order on Earth, existing in several countries.dawn of peace wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:52 amThe Brahma Net sutra is about receiving Bodhisattva vow, not about ordination of monks. one need to receive pratimoksha to become monk. Pratimoksha can only be received from a Sangha in a lineage that track back to the historical Buddha.while Bodhisattva vow can be received from any Buddha or Bodhisattva directly.The pratimosha is Sravakayana vow while Bodhisattva vow is Mahayana vow.receiving Sravakayana vow mean joining the Sangha which need formal ceremony while Mahayana vow have more to do with individual's internal commitment which is less important to receive from a historical lineage.Leo Rivers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:04 am I don't know about ordained but the Bodhisattva Bhumi and Brahma Net sutra both describe self administering a Bodhisattva Vow and getting confirmation in a vision or dream. This is helpfully an alturnitive to meeting a Buddha and receiving a Prediction.
Leo
PS I have both books and have checked it out.
Buddha himself established the Bodhisattva Order according to the Ekottarika Agama:
"The Bhagavān told him (Uruvilva Kashyapa), 'When a Tathāgata is present in the world, he should do five things. What are the five? First is to turn the Dharma wheel. Second is to explain the teaching to his father. Third is to explain the teaching to his mother. Fourth is to lead ordinary men to establish the bodhisattva practice. Fifth is to give the prediction [of becoming a Buddha] to a bodhisattva. These, Kāśyapa, are the five things a Tathāgata appears in the world to do.' "
Ekottarika Agama, Numerical Discourses, Chapter 24: Tall Flag, 5. Miraculous Transformations, verse 117.
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... _24_5.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
If one chooses to follow the vinaya and pratimoksha vows and live as a monk would, they can certainly do that. And if they ever meet actual ordained sangha, they can request to officially be monked. I’m sure they would be welcomed.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Special pleading is a fallacy.
"Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception."
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
In the Sarvastivada/Sautrantika view the upasaka/upasika ordination is also a pratimoksa. See the AKB of Vasubandhu for further information on this.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:41 pm If one chooses to follow the vinaya and pratimoksha vows and live as a monk would, they can certainly do that. And if they ever meet actual ordained sangha, they can request to officially be monked. I’m sure they would be welcomed.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
On page 581 in AKB, Vasubandhu says:
"The Pratimoksha is of eight types.
It includes the discipline of the Bhikshu, the Bhikshuni, the Shiksamana, the Shramanera (novice), the Shramanerika, the Upasaka, the Upasika, the Upavasastha ("faster"). These eight disciplines are the Pratimoksha disciplines: thus, from the point of view of the names given to them, the discipline of Pratimoksha is of eight types."
The discussion of Pratimoksha continues for more than twenty pages.
"The Pratimoksha is of eight types.
It includes the discipline of the Bhikshu, the Bhikshuni, the Shiksamana, the Shramanera (novice), the Shramanerika, the Upasaka, the Upasika, the Upavasastha ("faster"). These eight disciplines are the Pratimoksha disciplines: thus, from the point of view of the names given to them, the discipline of Pratimoksha is of eight types."
The discussion of Pratimoksha continues for more than twenty pages.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
I was just speaking in practical terms. If someone wants to be a monk but there’s no sangha available, that shouldn’t prevent them from being as much of a monk as they can be, unofficially. Even when people do choose to be one monks there is usually a trial period where they live like monks even though they are not monks.Aemilius wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:29 amIn the Sarvastivada/Sautrantika view the upasaka/upasika ordination is also a pratimoksa. See the AKB of Vasubandhu for further information on this.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:41 pm If one chooses to follow the vinaya and pratimoksha vows and live as a monk would, they can certainly do that. And if they ever meet actual ordained sangha, they can request to officially be monked. I’m sure they would be welcomed.
A wannabe monk and a real monk, either one might get run over by a bus tomorrow and die.
It is better to be an unordained monk and live truly by that, than to be an ordained monk who bends the rules a lot, who is a monk in name only.
Just as the Buddha said (basically), it’s your actions, not the label you wear, that determines what you are.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
- Dhammanando
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
I doubt you would be welcomed.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:41 pm If one chooses to follow the vinaya and pratimoksha vows and live as a monk would, they can certainly do that. And if they ever meet actual ordained sangha, they can request to officially be monked. I’m sure they would be welcomed.
For example, part of following the vinaya and pratimoksha vows would be wearing monks' robes. But if you showed up at a monastery in monks' robes, then as soon as it became known that you were wearing them without having been ordained, then you'd likely be informed that your status was that of a steyasamvāsika, someone who's gained "communion by theft". In all three extant Vinaya lineages this would result in a lifetime ban from being ordained.
If you wanted to live as a homeless samaṇa prior to getting ordained, then you'd need to be careful to behave in ways that will not lead people to mistake you for a bhikṣu, e.g., wearing ordinary vagrant clothes or white robes, not blessing people who give you almsfood, not using (in a Buddhist country) any of the titles or special pronouns that monks use, etc.
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
afaik only three -or five i don't remember well- fully ordained monks can ordain oneself.
and, for walking the boddhisatva path, having obviously walked in a previous life -otherwise the mere thought would't even arise-, is just needed to make the commitment visualizing all the buddhas and boddhisatvas in front of oneself to restore the thing. that is one of the alternatives, but that doesn't make oneself a monk at all, it makes oneself to be on the path of the boddhisatva.
and, for walking the boddhisatva path, having obviously walked in a previous life -otherwise the mere thought would't even arise-, is just needed to make the commitment visualizing all the buddhas and boddhisatvas in front of oneself to restore the thing. that is one of the alternatives, but that doesn't make oneself a monk at all, it makes oneself to be on the path of the boddhisatva.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Yes, and it is they who give the spirit of Japanese Buddhism.
Saicho in the Heian period, in establishing the Tendai school in Japan, replaced the pratimoksha code of the Vinaya with the 10 major precepts out of 48 minor precepts of the Bodhisatta described in the Brahmajalasutra, so that all later ordained Buddhist monks (such as Dogen, Honen, Shinran and Nichiren) are not fully ordained bikkhus according to the standards of the tripitaka vinaya.
This position gave rise in Japan to a broad movement of self-ordained or incompletely ordained people who are called "hijiri" in the history of Japanese Buddhism.
These Hijiri were very important in the development of Kamakura Buddhism, especially Pure Land Buddhism. ONE of the most prominent Hijiri is Kuya. He received Shami ordination (sramanera -> novice) in his youth, but did not complete his ordination, yet he lived like a bunch walking through villages teaching Nembutsu recitation, lived outside the mainstream of bonzes, and only received full tentai ordination at age 45.
Shinran Shonin, founder of the Jodoshinshu, was formally ordained in Tendai, but as part of the reprisals against the Pure Land school he was expelled from the order and lost the rank of bikkhu, thus he remained in a "Limbo" between not being an accepted bikkhu in the sangha, and at the same time not being a layman. The other "bonzes" ordained in Japan's Pure Land Buddhism are ordained neither by the tripitaka vinaya nor by the Bodhisattva precepts. Ordination is a formality to officialize ministers authorized by religious institutions, something similar to what happens in Abrahamic religions, where ordination is the final step after completing a study program.
Upholding pratimoksha precepts can be completely unnecessary depending on what teachings you practice and propagate. Faith in Amitabha's Original Vow, or Faith in the Honmon of Hokkekyo, does not require the receipt of precepts. Thus, becoming a "monk" is just a formality attached to an institution and not a requirement for attainment.
Saicho in the Heian period, in establishing the Tendai school in Japan, replaced the pratimoksha code of the Vinaya with the 10 major precepts out of 48 minor precepts of the Bodhisatta described in the Brahmajalasutra, so that all later ordained Buddhist monks (such as Dogen, Honen, Shinran and Nichiren) are not fully ordained bikkhus according to the standards of the tripitaka vinaya.
This position gave rise in Japan to a broad movement of self-ordained or incompletely ordained people who are called "hijiri" in the history of Japanese Buddhism.
These Hijiri were very important in the development of Kamakura Buddhism, especially Pure Land Buddhism. ONE of the most prominent Hijiri is Kuya. He received Shami ordination (sramanera -> novice) in his youth, but did not complete his ordination, yet he lived like a bunch walking through villages teaching Nembutsu recitation, lived outside the mainstream of bonzes, and only received full tentai ordination at age 45.
Shinran Shonin, founder of the Jodoshinshu, was formally ordained in Tendai, but as part of the reprisals against the Pure Land school he was expelled from the order and lost the rank of bikkhu, thus he remained in a "Limbo" between not being an accepted bikkhu in the sangha, and at the same time not being a layman. The other "bonzes" ordained in Japan's Pure Land Buddhism are ordained neither by the tripitaka vinaya nor by the Bodhisattva precepts. Ordination is a formality to officialize ministers authorized by religious institutions, something similar to what happens in Abrahamic religions, where ordination is the final step after completing a study program.
Upholding pratimoksha precepts can be completely unnecessary depending on what teachings you practice and propagate. Faith in Amitabha's Original Vow, or Faith in the Honmon of Hokkekyo, does not require the receipt of precepts. Thus, becoming a "monk" is just a formality attached to an institution and not a requirement for attainment.
Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
According to Vasubandhu in AKB, taking lay precepts also constitutes pratimoksha.ronnymarsh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:33 am Yes, and it is they who give the spirit of Japanese Buddhism.
Saicho in the Heian period, in establishing the Tendai school in Japan, replaced the pratimoksha code of the Vinaya with the 10 major precepts out of 48 minor precepts of the Bodhisatta described in the Brahmajalasutra, so that all later ordained Buddhist monks (such as Dogen, Honen, Shinran and Nichiren) are not fully ordained bikkhus according to the standards of the tripitaka vinaya.
This position gave rise in Japan to a broad movement of self-ordained or incompletely ordained people who are called "hijiri" in the history of Japanese Buddhism.
These Hijiri were very important in the development of Kamakura Buddhism, especially Pure Land Buddhism. ONE of the most prominent Hijiri is Kuya. He received Shami ordination (sramanera -> novice) in his youth, but did not complete his ordination, yet he lived like a bunch walking through villages teaching Nembutsu recitation, lived outside the mainstream of bonzes, and only received full tentai ordination at age 45.
Shinran Shonin, founder of the Jodoshinshu, was formally ordained in Tendai, but as part of the reprisals against the Pure Land school he was expelled from the order and lost the rank of bikkhu, thus he remained in a "Limbo" between not being an accepted bikkhu in the sangha, and at the same time not being a layman. The other "bonzes" ordained in Japan's Pure Land Buddhism are ordained neither by the tripitaka vinaya nor by the Bodhisattva precepts. Ordination is a formality to officialize ministers authorized by religious institutions, something similar to what happens in Abrahamic religions, where ordination is the final step after completing a study program.
Upholding pratimoksha precepts can be completely unnecessary depending on what teachings you practice and propagate. Faith in Amitabha's Original Vow, or Faith in the Honmon of Hokkekyo, does not require the receipt of precepts. Thus, becoming a "monk" is just a formality attached to an institution and not a requirement for attainment.
According to Vasubandhu (in the AKB) there are three levels of Pratimoksha: the ordinary (laypersons or monastics), the pratimoksha of dhyana and the pure pratimoksha of those on the transcendental path. You must not think that laypersons or bodhisattvas are without the basic, dhyana and higher pratimoksha.
AKB, p. 580.. 581:
"There are three types of discipline: 1.) the discipline called Pratimoksha, this is morality in the sphere of Kamadhatu, the morality of beings of this world; 2.) the discipline produced through dhyana is morality of the sphere of Rupadhatu, and 3.) pure discipline, which arises from the Path, pure morality.
"The Pratimoksha is of eight types: It includes the discipline of the Bhikshu, the Bhikshuni, the Sikshmana, the Shramanera, the Shramanerika, the Upasaka, the Upasika, and the Upavastha (faster). These eight disciplines are the Pratimoksha disciplines."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)