Teacher-Student Consent

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Malcolm
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:30 pm What separates Vajrayana from other religions, is the very advanced esoteric methods.
No, what separates Vajrayāna Buddhism from other religions is that it is Buddhist, and therefore, it is based on the view of dependent origination and emptiness.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm, you may have missed my previous post above, where I clarified that, saying more or less—towards the end of my post at any rate—what you just pointed out….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
fckw
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by fckw »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:19 pm Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce.
Of course Vajrayana makes the claim that teachers must have a special sauce, the special sauce being "realization".

If it were differently, everyone could do DI or pointing out.
Malcolm
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:19 pm Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce.
Of course Vajrayana makes the claim that teachers must have a special sauce, the special sauce being "realization".
No, actually, the whole system of Vajrayāna is based on ordinary people being able to transmit empowerments and so on, having satisfied basic requirements of mantra recitation, etc., because the principle of Vajrayāna empowerment is based on the teacher arranging a specific kind of dependent origination on the continuum of the student, etc. If the guru performing the empowerment is also a realized person, so much the better, but it is not a requirement. Is it better for you to think the teacher is realized, sure, since it causes confidence. Further, there is mundane realization, and transcendent realization. One can be realized and be below the path of seeing. I think you are a bit out of your depth here, frankly.
fckw
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by fckw »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:32 pm
fckw wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:19 pm Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce.
Of course Vajrayana makes the claim that teachers must have a special sauce, the special sauce being "realization".
No, actually, the whole system of Vajrayāna is based on ordinary people being able to transmit empowerments and so on, having satisfied basic requirements of mantra recitation, etc., because the principle of Vajrayāna empowerment is based on the teacher arranging a specific kind of dependent origination on the continuum of the student, etc. If the guru performing the empowerment is also a realized person, so much the better, but it is not a requirement. Is it better for you to think the teacher is realized, sure, since it causes confidence. Further, there is mundane realization, and transcendent realization. One can be realized and be below the path of seeing. I think you are a bit out of your depth here, frankly.
Then why are there repeated dismissive discussions in this forum about <random person XYZ> on the internet who takes up the role of a teacher if in principle everyone who has completed some formal requirement can and is allowed to do it? There is a big discrepancy between what you're saying and how - particularly in this forum, but also elsewhere - students are actually treating things. Just look at the endless discussions about Nankhai Norbu's succession and the lack thereof. There are plenty of people in that organisation who fulfilll the formal requirements for this or that practice, so why is not just everyone rejoicing? If they would take your words to their hearts, then there should be plenty of teachers giving plenty of empowerments.

Pointing to some supposedly formal requirement according to some Vajrayana texts is not enough. It's like having a law that just nobody is following. It's the actual practice that matters. And in actual practice I observe a dance around teachers that I just cannot subscribe to. And this dance, I keep my stance, in my view directly plays into covering up bad conduct in sanghas of Tibetan Buddhism.
Malcolm
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:49 pm
Then why are there repeated dismissive discussions in this forum about <random person XYZ> on the internet who takes up the role of a teacher if in principle everyone who has completed some formal requirement can and is allowed to do it? There is a big discrepancy between what you're saying and how - particularly in this forum, but also elsewhere - students are actually treating things.
I cannot be responsible for the education of everyone.
Just look at the endless discussions about Nankhai Norbu's succession and the lack thereof. There are plenty of people in that organisation who fulfilll the formal requirements for this or that practice, so why is not just everyone rejoicing? If they would take your words to their hearts, then there should be plenty of teachers giving plenty of empowerments.
Yes, and I have encouraged some people in the DC to step up. But they look at an old letter written 8 years ago, and treat it like the Koran. So, what to do?
Pointing to some supposedly formal requirement according to some Vajrayana texts is not enough. It's like having a law that just nobody is following. It's the actual practice that matters. And in actual practice I observe a dance around teachers that I just cannot subscribe to. And this dance, I keep my stance, in my view directly plays into covering up bad conduct in sanghas of Tibetan Buddhism.
There are two kinds of problems: my problem and not my problem. Which is this for you? For me, this is not my problem at all. Life is short. Don't waste it on nonessentials.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

fckw wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:19 pm Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce.
Of course Vajrayana makes the claim that teachers must have a special sauce, the special sauce being "realization".

If it were differently, everyone could do DI or pointing out.
If I’m wandering lost in the woods, and I meet you, and you are also wandering in the woods, but you have a map you are following that shows the way out, then even if you yourself are not out of the woods, you can share that map with me.
Similarly, a person does not have to be a fully realized being, free of samsara, in order to teach the dharma (or transmit teachings) to another,
Of course, it will be better to meet someone who has followed the way out and has gone back into the samsaric forest to help others.
Better, but not absolutely essential.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
fckw
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by fckw »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:53 pm There are two kinds of problems: my problem and not my problem. Which is this for you? For me, this is not my problem at all. Life is short. Don't waste it on nonessentials.
Now I had a good laugh, sometimes I get too caught up in the dynamics of sanghas out there. Thanks for the advice, and namaste.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ok, as the OP seems to be gone and we’ve had a decent conversation, I think it’s time to move on. As always, pm me if you believe it should stay open and make your case.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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