Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

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Gedun
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Gedun »

Dude share's an interesting experience that's obviously not easy to articulate. Period. Then he's speaking to all people interested in this type of thing, which is a very wide spectrum. IMO he's only trying to be skillful. Clickbait title of the thread notwithstanding. If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive. Like hanging a degree in your house is some obvious tell that warrants dismissing anything you ever say after that point, out of hand.
Knotty Veneer
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:01 am Dude share's an interesting experience that's obviously not easy to articulate. Period. Then he's speaking to all people interested in this type of thing, which is a very wide spectrum. IMO he's only trying to be skillful. Clickbait title of the thread notwithstanding. If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive. Like hanging a degree in your house is some obvious tell that warrants dismissing anything you ever say after that point, out of hand.
No I would still dismiss it - title/funny hat or no. There is no way to confirm his personal experience as real or imaginary. And no way to confirm his experience is universal. Subjective accounts like this (and they are all subjective) are a waste of time.
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Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:01 am If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive.
You don't know Dharmawheel very well...

Anyway, near-death experiences are not what the bardo teachings are talking about.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Gedun
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Gedun »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:29 am
Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:01 am Dude share's an interesting experience that's obviously not easy to articulate. Period. Then he's speaking to all people interested in this type of thing, which is a very wide spectrum. IMO he's only trying to be skillful. Clickbait title of the thread notwithstanding. If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive. Like hanging a degree in your house is some obvious tell that warrants dismissing anything you ever say after that point, out of hand.
No I would still dismiss it - title/funny hat or no. There is no way to confirm his personal experience as real or imaginary. And no way to confirm his experience is universal. Subjective accounts like this (and they are all subjective) are a waste of time.
Yes. You are free to ignore his the experience he shared. Or a Delok's Or anyone who says anything about anything that's not falsifiable. It's all without value. A huge waste of time.

As you were.
PeterC
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by PeterC »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:03 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:29 am
Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:01 am Dude share's an interesting experience that's obviously not easy to articulate. Period. Then he's speaking to all people interested in this type of thing, which is a very wide spectrum. IMO he's only trying to be skillful. Clickbait title of the thread notwithstanding. If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive. Like hanging a degree in your house is some obvious tell that warrants dismissing anything you ever say after that point, out of hand.
No I would still dismiss it - title/funny hat or no. There is no way to confirm his personal experience as real or imaginary. And no way to confirm his experience is universal. Subjective accounts like this (and they are all subjective) are a waste of time.
Yes. You are free to ignore his the experience he shared. Or a Delok's Or anyone who says anything about anything that's not falsifiable. It's all without value. A huge waste of time.

As you were.
There's thousands, probably millions of these things on youtube. We could:

(a) watch all of them, because they're all potentially interesting experiences that we might learn from; or

(b) not bother and instead focus on the instructions of what we're practising.

Since (a) would take me longer than I have left to live, I think I'll do (b).
Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Gedun wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:03 pm
No I would still dismiss it - title/funny hat or no. There is no way to confirm his personal experience as real or imaginary. And no way to confirm his experience is universal. Subjective accounts like this (and they are all subjective) are a waste of time.
Yes. You are free to ignore his the experience he shared. Or a Delok's
[/quote]

His experience was an NDE, it has no value beyond they fact that he think he met god, Buddha, or whoever.

Is experience was not the bardo of death, nor the bardo of dharmata, nor the bardo of rebirth. He experienced the bardo of NDE. What westerner science class “death” has nothing to do with what Buddhists call death, so, using a western medical term, NDE, and interpolating that into scheme if the bardo makes no sense. His consciousness did not separate from his body, etc. if it had, it would be “death” and he would have not returned to talk about it.

The Delog phenomena is the Tibetan equivalent, but those people didn’t really die, they experienced near fatal comas, not death.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
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cyril
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by cyril »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:04 pm

His experience was an NDE, it has no value beyond they fact that he think he met god, Buddha, or whoever.

Is experience was not the bardo of death, nor the bardo of dharmata, nor the bardo of rebirth. He experienced the bardo of NDE. What westerner science class “death” has nothing to do with what Buddhists call death, so, using a western medical term, NDE, and interpolating that into scheme if the bardo makes no sense. His consciousness did not separate from his body, etc. if it had, it would be “death” and he would have not returned to talk about it.

The Delog phenomena is the Tibetan equivalent, but those people didn’t really die, they experienced near fatal comas, not death.
Are NDE phenomena such as these then an integral part of the dying process proper? Is someone who dies for good bound to have this type of experience before going through the bardo of death and so on? If so, then they appear to constitute a bardo of their own so I wonder why are these phenomena never discussed or even mentioned in the classic bardo teachings?
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Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

cyril wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:00 pm

Are NDE phenomena such as these then an integral part of the dying process proper? Is someone who dies for good bound to have this type of experience before going through the bardo of death and so on?
Not necessarily. For example, a person who will be liberated at the time of death will not have any sort of experiences like this because they will die in a state of resting in luminosity.

These kinds of experiences are result of traces of karma.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
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Matt J
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Matt J »

Depends on the experience and depends on who you ask. Despite protestations to the contrary, TB teachers often refer to NDEs (their own or others) as related to the Bardo process (Tulku Thondop and Mingyur Rinpoche, for example).

For me, the growing body of NDE literature, including verdical NDEs in states where there should be no conscious perception, is suggestive that the physicalist-materialist model is incorrect. I thought this one was interesting because it is a report from a Western Dzogchen student.
cyril wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:00 pm Are NDE phenomena such as these then an integral part of the dying process proper? Is someone who dies for good bound to have this type of experience before going through the bardo of death and so on? If so, then they appear to constitute a bardo of their own so I wonder why are these phenomena never discussed or even mentioned in the classic bardo teachings?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:13 pm Depends on the experience and depends on who you ask. Despite protestations to the contrary, TB teachers often refer to NDEs (their own or others) as related to the Bardo process (Tulku Thondop and Mingyur Rinpoche, for example).
NDE's are usually a result of traumatic shock that will result in an untimely death without intervention. But since the process of dissolution is interrupted, they don't count "death" experiences since the consciousness never actually separates from the body.

Indeed, there is a method of temporarily reviving a person who is dying, so that instructions concerning bardo of dharmatā can be imparted, but actual death in a Buddhist context does not happen until the inner breath stops, and consciousness leaves the body. Since the process of dying and sleep are related, it is pretty clear that NDE's are akin to dreams when the patient is being revived. So, if they are bardo related, it is the dream bardo, not the death bardo, to which they are related, in my opinion.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Genjo Conan
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Genjo Conan »

My initial response was perhaps a bit snarky, but still: people report all sorts of things after NDEs. Some people see their dead parents sitting at the foot of Jesus' throne. The Sweeping Zen guy became convinced that Buddhism was the work of Satan. Some people see trippy phantasmagoria. What are we supposed to make of any of those stories? Either they're all meaningless, or they're all meaningful (in which case, what does that say?), or some are meaningful and others aren't. I'm not sure how we're meant to judge in any event, and until we find some reliable way to do so, I'll keep my faith in the Triple Gem.
Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:33 pm My initial response was perhaps a bit snarky, but still: people report all sorts of things after NDEs. Some people see their dead parents sitting at the foot of Jesus' throne. The Sweeping Zen guy became convinced that Buddhism was the work of Satan. Some people see trippy phantasmagoria. What are we supposed to make of any of those stories? Either they're all meaningless, or they're all meaningful (in which case, what does that say?), or some are meaningful and others aren't. I'm not sure how we're meant to judge in any event, and until we find some reliable way to do so, I'll keep my faith in the Triple Gem.
As I said, they are just dreams people have when they are being revived.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
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Matt J
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Matt J »

From a Western neuro-biological view, NDEs and dreams are quite different. NDEs often occur, as stated, when the brain function is below the currently accepted standards for perceptions or even consciousness generally, even in cases in which there is no detectable EEG reading, whereas dream brain functions are quite active and recorded on EEG. They are also quite different from other mental states, such as hallucinations from oxygen deprivation, etc. Subjectively, they are also quite different from dreams as they more often involve veridical OBE experiences, hyper-lucidity, people blind from birth seeing color, etc.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:02 pm Since the process of dying and sleep are related, it is pretty clear that NDE's are akin to dreams when the patient is being revived. So, if they are bardo related, it is the dream bardo, not the death bardo, to which they are related, in my opinion.
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cyril
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by cyril »

One tangentially related question if you don't mind, Malcolm (as I don't think it deserves its own thread):
In Tibet they had that sort of masked performance enacting the court of King Yama, where one character counts white pebbles representing the good deeds of the dead person and urges the audience to recite manis on his behalf, another character counts black pebbles representing the bad deeds, and so on. Is this kind of performance based on some terma or is it just a cultural thing?
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Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 pm From a Western neuro-biological view, NDEs and dreams are quite different. NDEs often occur, as stated, when the brain function is below the currently accepted standards for perceptions or even consciousness generally
Uh huh...currently accepted standards...In any case, from the outside, one cannot tell when a person is having their NDE, most people who have them are not connected to EEG machines during their traumatic health incident. As a person who has flatlined, I can tell you consciousness fights hard to stay in the body. I was pronounced DOA from an accidental drug overdose on July 3rd, 1979. They were ready to tag me and bag me, until my mother came in and said my name. My toe twitched, and they realized I was still alive. I woke up intubated, it wasn't fun.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Sādhaka
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Sādhaka »

Matt J wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 pm From a Western neuro-biological view, NDEs and dreams are quite different. NDEs often occur, as stated, when the brain function is below the currently accepted standards for perceptions or even consciousness generally, even in cases in which there is no detectable EEG reading, whereas dream brain functions are quite active and recorded on EEG. They are also quite different from other mental states, such as hallucinations from oxygen deprivation, etc. Subjectively, they are also quite different from dreams as they more often involve veridical OBE experiences, hyper-lucidity, people blind from birth seeing color, etc.

Perhaps it is in relation to the degree of dmt release….

I’d theorize that in dreams there is a smaller release, in NDE’s a medium release, and during the death process the full flood ensues….
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Sādhaka »

Also, going to take dmt from an synthetic, plant, or animal source, isn’t going to fix everything.

As some Dzogchen Masters have said, seeing visions by itself is more or less only similar to merely watching TV, if one does not have a right base….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Sādhaka »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:42 pm…isn’t going to fix everything.

Or what I meant to say, isn’t going to lead to Liberation. Although it may have some relative therapeutic use for some people, and possibly even set their life on a better trajectory that could even lead to better outcomes in future lifetimes. But as always, from a Dharmic perspective, if there’s no Right View, then the benefits would be limited.

And some people may even have an “bad trip” in which case they’ll either say that it was scary and wish that they hadn’t done it; or they’ll say that it was scary, but that they’re glad that they did it and faced their fears. Or, I’ve heard that some people do it, and then believe that entities they’ve met during the experience, are from then on on their side, and are helping them to accomplish their delusions of grandeur in life (or who knows, maybe one could become connected to ‘entities’ that begin to help one; but it’s more likely an type of delusion going on there).

Not to “go Joe Rogan” and mention DMT at any opportunity…. I just think that it was relevant here. As with anything that happens in the body, DMT released during dreams, NDEs, and death, would be a catalyst for experience, not the end all be all in itself; lest we wax materialist (and from the Dzogchen point of view, deluded experience is itself what initially led to the eventual apparent formation of the apparent gross material body).

As for Liberation in the Bardo of the death experience—as opposed to taking another lower rebirth—the main determining factor of course would be whether one has been introduced to the Basis, and also having become familiar with the meaning of that through practice in one’s lifetime.
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Matt J
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Matt J »

Well, you do have veridical OBEs, in which a person reports leaving their physical body and observing the external environment--- at the time of a flatline in some cases, or the expected flatline (i.e. 15-20 seconds after cardiac arrest). We can then check their observations against witnesses who weren't undergoing OBEs (doctors, medical staff etc.). We can then compare their reports against people who did not have OBEs but who have undergone the procedures, and compare the accuracy. In addition, NDErs may report highly idiosyncratic behavior (such as a surgeon flapping his hands like a chicken). This can assist in correlating the timing.

There has been quite a bit of NDE research, exploring many common questions raised. If people are interested, Dr. Greyson from UVAs DOPS just released a book with an overview on the subject. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08975CXZV/re ... TF8&btkr=1

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:57 pm Uh huh...currently accepted standards...In any case, from the outside, one cannot tell when a person is having their NDE, most people who have them are not connected to EEG machines during their traumatic health incident. As a person who has flatlined, I can tell you consciousness fights hard to stay in the body. I was pronounced DOA from an accidental drug overdose on July 3rd, 1979. They were ready to tag me and bag me, until my mother came in and said my name. My toe twitched, and they realized I was still alive. I woke up intubated, it wasn't fun.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
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Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:43 pm Well, you do have veridical OBEs, in which a person reports leaving their physical body and observing the external environment--- at the time of a flatline in some cases, or the expected flatline (i.e. 15-20 seconds after cardiac arrest). We can then check their observations against witnesses who weren't undergoing OBEs (doctors, medical staff etc.). We can then compare their reports against people who did not have OBEs but who have undergone the procedures, and compare the accuracy. In addition, NDErs may report highly idiosyncratic behavior (such as a surgeon flapping his hands like a chicken). This can assist in correlating the timing.
It takes three days for consciousness to separate from the body. As you say, we can do all of the above; but have we really? No.

It's all still completely anecdotal at this point.

The problem with the whole Buddhist NDE thing is that it mixing systems, science on the one hand, with its definition of death; with Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, with its much more elaborate definition of death.

From the western Medical POV, flatlined patients will not survive more than five minutes.
Most of these resurgences in heart activity occurred between 1 or 2 minutes after the heart had stopped. They were usually only a single heartbeat long, or less than 5 seconds in duration.

The study suggests that protocols around organ donation should stick to the 5-minute convention, given that no one's heart restarted again after a gap longer than 4 minutes and 20 seconds, Dhanani said. Transplant teams should be prepared for the possibility that they might have to adjust their timing if a patient's heart does restart. Ultimately, he said, the research should help standardize organ donation processes internationally.
https://www.livescience.com/flatlining- ... tinue.html

Referenced article:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022713

This means that all these NDE's and OBE's are occurring within a five minute period, and this means that consciousness has not left the body, etc. There are occasional outliers, like the woman in Spain whose heart started beating again after six hours, because she went into hypothermia:
Hypothermia had protected her body and brain from deteriorating while unconscious, Mr Argudo said, despite also bringing her to the brink of death.

In a race against time, doctors treating Mrs Schoeman turned to a specialised machine capable of removing blood, infusing it with oxygen and reintroducing it to the patient.

Once her body temperature had reached 30C, they used a defibrillator to jump-start her heart some six hours after emergency services were contacted.

Mrs Schoeman was released from hospital 12 days later, with only some lingering issues with the mobility and sensitivity of her hands due to the hypothermia.

He added: "If she had been in cardiac arrest for this long at a normal body temperature, she would be dead."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50681489
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
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