Dzogchen and the Two Stages

[Johnny Dangerous]

Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

Yes. It is not our path. Personally, I did not come up that way, having done a three year retreat on Lamdre, etc. Many people do not meet proper Dzogchen teachings until quite well into their path, so you will find many people with experience in the two stages who practice Dzogchen, but the path of transformation and the path of self-liberation are completely distinct. And when they finally meet the Dzogchen path, they usually give up practicing the two stages, other than for prophylactic reasons such as long life practice, sang offerings, protectors, etc., practices that deal with our adventitious karma conditions.

As I mentioned before, guru yoga is the main relative practice of Dzogchen teachings.

I think there is a certain strain of dzogchen triumphalism that is disingenuous. It is not true that these masters, such as Jigme Lingpa and Patrul Rinpoche, dropped their two stages practice other than for long life practice etc. They focused on it for years, simultaneous with their practice of Dzogchen. Jigme Lingpa's retreat schedule involved togal and generation stage and in fact he did more sessions of the latter.

most of the Nyinthig practices are majority two stages sadhanas

Of course it would be possible not to do two stages, this is also possible in mahamudra, but the type of person who can do this is vanishingly rare. It looks like selling dzogchen as its own path that is so high you dont need to engage in "lesser practices" excites a certain kind of person who hopes for quick results without doing the basic work that would allow these higher paths to function. There is the odd chigchar that you hear about in history,
but everyone else pratices everything, from moral discipline to the final stages

This is not a convincing argument to me. There is enough of a difference between the view of practicing creation and completion and the Dzogchen view that teacgers have written whole books purporting to connect them.

It seems a lot more likely that insistence on the two stages is more a result of orthodoxy and orthopraxy in a religious culture which highly values graduated stages. Certainly, in what I have been exposed to of Bon Dzogchen for instance, Tantra is seen as less of a requirement.

That is not to say one or the other is more valuable for individuals, but the claim of some “natural” and obvious connection between the two views makes a lot less sense to me.

Similarly, practice of extensive Sadhana is simply not an attractive or effective method for everyone, even though it is so prominent in Tibetan religious culture. The idea that it is somehow needed for Dzogchen does not make sense, going by presentations of Dzogchen praxis I’ve seen.

It clearly -does- makes sense according to the developed practices of the Nyingma school and the Nine Yanas model, but I do not think it is honest to conflate those two things as identical ….even if I can understand how and why people would do so.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Also this is an interesting conversation, but is drifting OT. Would people prefer I move it to a new thread or join it to the above mentioned deity yoga and two stages thread?

[yagmort]

Literally anyone could...

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..

...However, the whole of the Vima Nyinthig, there isn't a single deity practice, not one...

how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced. so while there are dzogchen teachings and empowermnents on things like Longchen Nyingthig, Yeshe Lama/Thigle Gyachen, Chetsün Nyingthig, some dzogchen from Düdjom Tersar, which are rather widely practiced and also translated into english, Nyingthig Yabzhi is much more rarely given and is not translated. the end result is that ordinary western guys, who doesn't speak Tibetan and don't have years or decades of Vajrayana experience under their belt, are left without options to do dzogchen straight away without any deit yoga/2 stages...

...join it to the above mentioned deity yoga and two stages thread?

i would prefer that.

[PeterC]

Literally anyone could...

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..

Any teacher should make sure a student is serious, and it's up to them how they do that. But if you're asking whether there are teachers today who do not put their students through 4x100k preliminaries, three roots etc. before doing the path of Dzogchen, yes there are, and these teachings really aren't that difficult to obtain.

My point was really that as a *path*, practising Dzogchen is not preliminaries > three roots > more preliminaries > another yidam > perhaps some trekchod teachings someday. Dzogchen as a path is semdzins, rushens (and some related practices), trekchod, togal. If that was all someone does, that is enough. Terma cycles might happen to have lots of other practices bundled in, and those practices often have Dzogchen-esque features. Nothing at all wrong with three roots etc., and I am absolutely not saying that one should not do those practices: indeed if you are a serious student of any terma cycle, then you will do them.

[Malcolm]

how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced.

Where do you think three words of Garab Dorje is from, Shri Simha's Soaring Garuda? Etc. Jamgon Kongtrul has a whole, beautiful commentary marrying the mother and child Nyinthigs. The Vima Nyinthig is quite alive and well. It is the aorta through which the heartblood of the 17 tantras is pumped. All the rest of the Nyinthigs are subsidiary to it.

Most commentaries on Dzogchen Nyinthig have people start with the two accumulations, refuge through guru yoga, and then skip directly to rushan, trekcho, and thogal, such as the Third Karmapa's commentary on the Vima Nyinthig, Terdak Lingpa's commmentary on Khandro Nyinthig, his daughter's commentary on Konchog Chidu, Rigzin Chenpo Pema Thrinly's commentary on the essence of the Gongpa Zangthal, which is a short text, and is the main text by which meaning of the Gongpa Zangthal is practiced, etc. There is the Chetsun Nyinthig, which is widespread these days. The Thigle Gyacan is a recitation as well, but it is not practice in the manner of creation and completion in the standard Mahāyoga way.

But the important thing, as always, is to follow your GURU's instructions about what to practice, and stop worrying about what other people practice.

[Tata1]

Literally anyone could...

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..

Well i received dzogchen teachings from at least 7 teachers and non of then even asked me if i was doing ngondro or two stages
I guess experiences may vary. In fact no dzogchen teacher of mine asked me any tantric prerequisit ever.

[Josef]

Literally anyone could...

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..

...However, the whole of the Vima Nyinthig, there isn't a single deity practice, not one...

how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced. so while there are dzogchen teachings and empowermnents on things like Longchen Nyingthig, Yeshe Lama/Thigle Gyachen, Chetsün Nyingthig, some dzogchen from Düdjom Tersar, which are rather widely practiced and also translated into english, Nyingthig Yabzhi is much more rarely given and is not translated. the end result is that ordinary western guys, who doesn't speak Tibetan and don't have years or decades of Vajrayana experience under their belt, are left without options to do dzogchen straight away without any deit yoga/2 stages...

...join it to the above mentioned deity yoga and two stages thread?

i would prefer that.

The Vima Nyingtig is definitely practiced. By western practitioners as well. If you practice the Yeshe Lama etc you are practicing the Vima Nyingtig. Some of us take this approach as our practice as opposed to deity yoga sadhanas etc.

[Shaiksha]

how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced.

Where do you think three words of Garab Dorje is from, Shri Simha's Soaring Garuda? Etc. Jamgon Kongtrul has a whole, beautiful commentary marrying the mother and child Nyinthigs. The Vima Nyinthig is quite alive and well. It is the aorta through which the heartblood of the 17 tantras is pumped. All the rest of the Nyinthigs are subsidiary to it.

Most commentaries on Dzogchen Nyinthig have people start with the two accumulations, refuge through guru yoga, and then skip directly to rushan, trekcho, and thogal, such as the Third Karmapa's commentary on the Vima Nyinthig, Terdak Lingpa's commmentary on Khandro Nyinthig, his daughter's commentary on Konchog Chidu, Rigzin Chenpo Pema Thrinly's commentary on the essence of the Gongpa Zangthal, which is a short text, and is the main text by which meaning of the Gongpa Zangthal is practiced, etc. There is the Chetsun Nyinthig, which is widespread these days. The Thigle Gyacan is a recitation as well, but it is not practice in the manner of creation and completion in the standard Mahāyoga way.

But the important thing, as always, is to follow your GURU's instructions about what to practice, and stop worrying about what other people practice.

Sure. The Vima Nyinthig is "quite alive and well" but you have not answered his question - who practiced the lineage nowadays? Most (if not all) practice other lineages (which have deity yogas) and may, say, study the 17 tantras or Lonchenpa's writings but none of us are aware anyone who exclusively practice and teach the Vima nyingtik in its original form (whatever that may be).

[Shaiksha]

Literally anyone could...

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..

...However, the whole of the Vima Nyinthig, there isn't a single deity practice, not one...

how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced. so while there are dzogchen teachings and empowermnents on things like Longchen Nyingthig, Yeshe Lama/Thigle Gyachen, Chetsün Nyingthig, some dzogchen from Düdjom Tersar, which are rather widely practiced and also translated into english, Nyingthig Yabzhi is much more rarely given and is not translated. the end result is that ordinary western guys, who doesn't speak Tibetan and don't have years or decades of Vajrayana experience under their belt, are left without options to do dzogchen straight away without any deit yoga/2 stages...

...join it to the above mentioned deity yoga and two stages thread?

i would prefer that.

The Vima Nyingtig is definitely practiced. By western practitioners as well. If you practice the Yeshe Lama etc you are practicing the Vima Nyingtig. Some of us take this approach as our practice as opposed to deity yoga sadhanas etc.

Sure but the teaching or transmission on the Yeshe Lama is not something that is freely given by any lama (that I am aware of). Usually, you are required to do preliminaries and so on (that involves deity yoga) and have deity yoga sadhanas etc. Even if the lung is given in advance, you are then required to commit to certain practices.

[yagmort]

... If you practice the Yeshe Lama etc you are practicing the Vima Nyingtig...

isn't Yeshe Lama is dzogchen appendix to the Longchen Nyingthig?

The Vima Nyinthig is quite alive and well. It is the aorta through which the heartblood of the 17 tantras is pumped. All the rest of the Nyinthigs are subsidiary to it...

it's nice and poetic, but are you just saying anyone who practice rushen/tregchö/thogal is practicing Vima Nyingthig?

...and stop worrying about what other people practice.

huh?

[Josef]

... If you practice the Yeshe Lama etc you are practicing the Vima Nyingtig...

isn't Yeshe Lama is dzogchen appendix to the Longchen Nyingthig?

The Vima Nyinthig is quite alive and well. It is the aorta through which the heartblood of the 17 tantras is pumped. All the rest of the Nyinthigs are subsidiary to it...

it's nice and poetic, but are you just saying anyone who practice rushen/tregchö/thogal is practicing Vima Nyingthig?

...and stop worrying about what other people practice.

huh?

Yeshe Lama is a practice manual for the Yabzhi.

[Josef]

how they would do this?
from what i understand, the majority of tibetan teachers are rather disapproving of westerners who want to dive right into dzogchen. they expect some sort of maturity. so if one request dzogchen without 2 stages, it is almost certainly a teacher respond with something like "i don't know you, i cannot promise dzogchen, this is very high teaching, you do ngöndro first, then we will see"..




how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced. so while there are dzogchen teachings and empowermnents on things like Longchen Nyingthig, Yeshe Lama/Thigle Gyachen, Chetsün Nyingthig, some dzogchen from Düdjom Tersar, which are rather widely practiced and also translated into english, Nyingthig Yabzhi is much more rarely given and is not translated. the end result is that ordinary western guys, who doesn't speak Tibetan and don't have years or decades of Vajrayana experience under their belt, are left without options to do dzogchen straight away without any deit yoga/2 stages...




i would prefer that.

The Vima Nyingtig is definitely practiced. By western practitioners as well. If you practice the Yeshe Lama etc you are practicing the Vima Nyingtig. Some of us take this approach as our practice as opposed to deity yoga sadhanas etc.

Sure but the teaching or transmission on the Yeshe Lama is not something that is freely given by any lama (that I am aware of). Usually, you are required to do preliminaries and so on (that involves deity yoga) and have deity yoga sadhanas etc. Even if the lung is given in advance, you are then required to commit to certain practices.

Typically, yes, we de these preliminary practices but whether or not they continue to be one’s main practice is up to the individual.

[yagmort]

... For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.

i've read the topic Tigle Gyachen and Yeshe Lama, but don't understand why one need Thigle Gyachan empowerment to practice Yeshe Lama? is it because that, according to rigpawiki, Thigle Gyachen "is considered an indispensable preliminary to dzogchen practice"? so again, does that mean Yeshe Lama cannot be practiced without Thigle Gyachen?

[heart]

... For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.

i've read the topic Tigle Gyachen and Yeshe Lama, but don't understand why one need Thigle Gyachan empowerment to practice Yeshe Lama? is it because that, according to rigpawiki, Thigle Gyachen "is considered an indispensable preliminary to dzogchen practice"? so again, does that mean Yeshe Lama cannot be practiced without Thigle Gyachen?

In the Longchen Nyingtik tradition Tigle Gyachen is "considered an indispensable preliminary to Dzogchen practice". In the Chetsun Nyingtik it is the ngondro that is considered indispensable. In the Kunzang Tugtik tradition it is the shitro sadhana. You have to understand that this doesn't mean that there will be no Dzogchen before the preliminaries are completed. Dzogchen can start immediately but following the tradition is considered optimal for a good result. I once asked Tulku Dakpa about this that many don't consider ngondro and yidam to be a part of Dzogchen. He answered "well that is true, nevertheless the path starts there".

/magnus

[PeterC]

... For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.

i've read the topic Tigle Gyachen and Yeshe Lama, but don't understand why one need Thigle Gyachan empowerment to practice Yeshe Lama? is it because that, according to rigpawiki, Thigle Gyachen "is considered an indispensable preliminary to dzogchen practice"? so again, does that mean Yeshe Lama cannot be practiced without Thigle Gyachen?

You need (apart from the lung and explanation) at least an empowerment that includes the display of wisdom awareness to engage in the practices of the yeshe lama. Doesn’t have to be the thigle gyacan. But more important, you need whatever the lama who gives you the yeshe lama says you need.

[yagmort]

... For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.

You need (apart from the lung and explanation) at least an empowerment that includes the display of wisdom awareness to engage in the practices of the yeshe lama. Doesn’t have to be the thigle gyacan..

i think i lack the understanding what empowerments are. for example, Chetsun Nyingthig has 4 empowerments, but they are relatively concise.
from Atiyoga page at rigpawiki:

...Entry Point -
One’s mind is matured through the four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments (Tib. རིག་པའི་རྩལ་དབང་, rigpé tsal wang)

so these 4 empowerments in Chetsun Nyingthig = rigpa tsel wang empowerment? or rigpa tsel wang is the different thing altogether?
what about Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyachen empowerments? to me it sounds what Malcolm said is that Thigle Gyachen has (4?) empowermnets and then Yeshe Lama has its own rigpa tsel wang empowerment, but what Peter said is like Thigle Gyachen has rigpa tsel wang one would need to practice Yeshe Lama, but it hasn't necessery to come from Thigle Gyachen? can some one clear this up for me, please?

found this from a locked topic:

..As i have tried to make clear on several occasions, in situations like this you can't just say "empowerment" without specifying what sort of empowerment you are referring to, for example the requirements for a rig pa'i rtsal dbang are vastly different than those for a vase empowerment. Even a single practice may have several empowerment rituals associated with it, for example the Kunzang Tuktig from the Chokling Tersar alone has four empowerment rituals--an outer empowerment for the yidam practice that can be given to most anyone, a separate one for the practice of trekcho and another for togal, and then there is a complete empowerment combining all these into a single ritual—so when someone states "I have received the empowerment for the Kunzang Tuktig." One must be careful to ask them to distinguish exactly which empowerment they received, as many people only receive the outer empowerment never realizing that that is just the beginning and does not give them access to the instructions (tri) associated with trekcho and togal...

is this arrangement (3 separate empowerments and 1 unified for all three) also the case for Chetsun Nyingthig? and where is rigpa tsel wang (if any) in that scheme for Kunzang Thugtig?

[Malcolm]

so these 4 empowerments in Chetsun Nyingthig = rigpa tsel wang empowerment? or rigpa tsel wang is the different thing altogether?

It's included in the four empowerments.

what about Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyachen empowerments? to me it sounds what Malcolm said is that Thigle Gyachen has (4?) empowermnets and then Yeshe Lama has its own rigpa tsel wang empowerment, but what Peter said is like Thigle Gyachen has rigpa tsel wang one would need to practice Yeshe Lama, but it hasn't necessery to come from Thigle Gyachen? can some one clear this up for me, please?

Yes, this is correct Thigle Gyacan has a rig pa'i rtsal dbang, and when you are receiving Ye shes bla ma, there is another rig pa'i rtsal dbang, before moving onto further instructions. Originally, however, the Thigle Gyacan had no empowerment. That was written by Khyentse Wangpo.

is this arrangement (3 separate empowerments and 1 unified for all three) also the case for Chetsun Nyingthig?

No.

and where is rigpa tsel wang (if any) in that scheme for Kunzang Thugtig?

You should go and receive this tradition, if you are interested in it.

[heart]

is this arrangement (3 separate empowerments and 1 unified for all three) also the case for Chetsun Nyingthig? and where is rigpa tsel wang (if any) in that scheme for Kunzang Thugtig?

The empowerments in Chetsun Nyingtik is more or less modeled after the four empowerment's in the Lama Yangtik.

The elaborate empowerment manual "The net of Brahma". Author: Longchen rabjam
Unelaborate empowerment called "Jewel Net". Author: Longchen Rabjam .
Very unelaborate empowerment called "Lotus Net". Author: Longchen Rabjam
Extremely unelaborate empowerment called "Net of Light". Author: Longchen Rabjam

Well, there is an empowerment for the Kunzang Tuktig that includes the rigpai tsal wang, it was written by the 15th Karmapa. The empowerment from the terma is very short and translated in the book "Dzogchen deity practice". There are also standalone rigpai tsal wangs.

/magnus

[cloudburst]

How can I possibly answer such a question? I don't know all people who call themselves Dzogchen practitioners.

How many of the great dzogchen practioners of the past never engaged in the two stages?

We can speculate about that. Like twelve Buddhas of dzogchen, Garab dorje, Shri Singha, Jñanasutra, Vimalamitra, Vairotsana, etc. Here are the names straight off from my head. Feel free to add to the list......

[heart]

How many of the great dzogchen practioners of the past never engaged in the two stages?

We can speculate about that. Like twelve Buddhas of dzogchen, Garab dorje, Shri Singha, Jñanasutra, Vimalamitra, Vairotsana, etc. Here are the names straight off from my head. Feel free to add to the list......

The Chime Pakme Nyingtik cycle also contains a Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra that comes with Dzogchen teachings. Also as a Mahayoga practice even the main sadhana of CPN is far from classic. Termas have their own logic and style.

/magnus