Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

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Tenma
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Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Tenma »

Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.
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Anders
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Anders »

Are we talking gluten allergy or celiac disease?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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AmidaB
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by AmidaB »

Anders wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:34 am Are we talking gluten allergy or celiac disease?
There is no such thing as 'gluten allergy'. However, there is a food or contact allergy, called wheat allergy.
Please look up the classification of the gluten-related disorders. A commonly available starting point is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-related_disorders
Now I'm waiting until a trained TTM doctor chime in because this is an especially interesting topic for me.
Best,
a
Malcolm
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:54 am Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.
Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Tenma
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Tenma »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:28 pm
Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:54 am Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.
Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.
Didn't know Tibet used those Ayurvedic concepts! Is it a result of the Tibetan system not having certain concepts for a gluten-sensitivity issue like here compared to Ayurveda?
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Malcolm
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:28 pm
Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:54 am Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.
Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.
Didn't know Tibet used those Ayurvedic concepts! Is it a result of the Tibetan system not having certain concepts for a gluten-sensitivity issue like here compared to Ayurveda?
Tibetan Medicine is basically Ayurveda imported to Tibet. Classical Ayurveda does not have concepts for things like gluten-sensitivity either. The Ayurvedic ideal is that one should be able to eat anything, and if one cannot, it is due to impaired digestive heat, which has three components, kapha, pitta, and vata, in descending order. Inability to digest proteins is likely an issue with kledaka kapha (myag byed bad kan) and pacaka pitta ('ju byed mkhris pa) not being able to break down gluten protein, which results in a feeling of bloating, indigestion, etc., This nutriment can't be properly separated by the samana-vata (me myams rlung), resulting in maldigested nutriment being sent to the liver, where it becomes stressed, overheated, and then there are resulting symptoms of food sensitivity in terms of rashes, and other pitta symptom. So the treatment here would be to strengthen the digestive heat with a combination of conduct, diet, herbs, and certain therapies. and of course the details all depend on what kind of prakṛti (rang bzhin), or constitution one has—vatta, pitta, kapha, vata-pitta, vata-kapha, pitta-kapha, or tridoṣic—and what kind of vitiated (vikṛti, rnam par 'gyur ba) doṣa (nyes pa) one has at the time
Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!

—— Candrakīrti. MAV 6:166
Montoya
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Montoya »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:00 pm
Tenma wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:28 pm

Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.
Didn't know Tibet used those Ayurvedic concepts! Is it a result of the Tibetan system not having certain concepts for a gluten-sensitivity issue like here compared to Ayurveda?
Tibetan Medicine is basically Ayurveda imported to Tibet. Classical Ayurveda does not have concepts for things like gluten-sensitivity either. The Ayurvedic ideal is that one should be able to eat anything, and if one cannot, it is due to impaired digestive heat, which has three components, kapha, pitta, and vata, in descending order. Inability to digest proteins is likely an issue with kledaka kapha (myag byed bad kan) and pacaka pitta ('ju byed mkhris pa) not being able to break down gluten protein, which results in a feeling of bloating, indigestion, etc., This nutriment can't be properly separated by the samana-vata (me myams rlung), resulting in maldigested nutriment being sent to the liver, where it becomes stressed, overheated, and then there are resulting symptoms of food sensitivity in terms of rashes, and other pitta symptom. So the treatment here would be to strengthen the digestive heat with a combination of conduct, diet, herbs, and certain therapies. and of course the details all depend on what kind of prakṛti (rang bzhin), or constitution one has—vatta, pitta, kapha, vata-pitta, vata-kapha, pitta-kapha, or tridoṣic—and what kind of vitiated (vikṛti, rnam par 'gyur ba) doṣa (nyes pa) one has at the time
Would Tibetan medicine/Ayurveda concede this is unlikely to help in the case of genetically pre-disposed celiac disease, or would they claim it is useful even in that case?
PeterC
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by PeterC »

Gluten intolerance is a specifically modern condition that results largely from the way we bake bread these days. Until partway through the 20th century bread was leavened for a period of time before baking - typically overnight, for convenience - and in that period the enzymes metabolized most of the gluten. In modern baking you aim to reduce turnaround time, so that you can either have more output or less capital, and therefore it employs chemical or mechanical leavening more than traditional biological leavening. That means the chemical composition of the bread coming out is simply different and our digestive systems are, in some cases, less able to process it.

There is also a long debate about gluten intolerance as an allergy, whether that is something inherited or acquired, do dieticians rush to diagnose this, etc., which people get very animated on. Without offering an opinion on that, my point is that for a lot of people this is a consequence of the way baking bread has changed, and as such there's no reason why Tibetan medicine should have much to say about that problem.
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AmidaB
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by AmidaB »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:53 am Gluten intolerance is a specifically modern condition that results largely from the way we bake bread these days. Until partway through the 20th century bread was leavened for a period of time before baking - typically overnight, for convenience - and in that period the enzymes metabolized most of the gluten. In modern baking you aim to reduce turnaround time, so that you can either have more output or less capital, and therefore it employs chemical or mechanical leavening more than traditional biological leavening. That means the chemical composition of the bread coming out is simply different and our digestive systems are, in some cases, less able to process it.

There is also a long debate about gluten intolerance as an allergy, whether that is something inherited or acquired, do dieticians rush to diagnose this, etc., which people get very animated on. Without offering an opinion on that, my point is that for a lot of people this is a consequence of the way baking bread has changed, and as such there's no reason why Tibetan medicine should have much to say about that problem.
I say poppycock.
Please read a bit about bread making and the role of the gluten-gliadin:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten- ... s-it-work/
and here is an unusually bright and seemingly well researched article from the net:
https://www.pantrymama.com/is-sourdough ... uten-free/
Here you can find the pathophysiology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-related_disorders
Furthermore, here you can read about the short history:
https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-dis ... c-history/
Interestingly enough the vague term of digestive heat have also mentioned by Aretaeus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_d ... aeus_142-0
PeterC
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by PeterC »

AmidaB wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:39 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:53 am Gluten intolerance is a specifically modern condition that results largely from the way we bake bread these days. Until partway through the 20th century bread was leavened for a period of time before baking - typically overnight, for convenience - and in that period the enzymes metabolized most of the gluten. In modern baking you aim to reduce turnaround time, so that you can either have more output or less capital, and therefore it employs chemical or mechanical leavening more than traditional biological leavening. That means the chemical composition of the bread coming out is simply different and our digestive systems are, in some cases, less able to process it.

There is also a long debate about gluten intolerance as an allergy, whether that is something inherited or acquired, do dieticians rush to diagnose this, etc., which people get very animated on. Without offering an opinion on that, my point is that for a lot of people this is a consequence of the way baking bread has changed, and as such there's no reason why Tibetan medicine should have much to say about that problem.
I say poppycock.
Please read a bit about bread making and the role of the gluten-gliadin:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten- ... s-it-work/
and here is an unusually bright and seemingly well researched article from the net:
https://www.pantrymama.com/is-sourdough ... uten-free/
Here you can find the pathophysiology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-related_disorders
Furthermore, here you can read about the short history:
https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-dis ... c-history/
Interestingly enough the vague term of digestive heat have also mentioned by Aretaeus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_d ... aeus_142-0
Not going to read a bunch of links without knowing what you want me to see. What’s your disagreement?
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AmidaB
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by AmidaB »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:56 pm
AmidaB wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:39 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:53 am Gluten intolerance is a specifically modern condition that results largely from the way we bake bread these days. Until partway through the 20th century bread was leavened for a period of time before baking - typically overnight, for convenience - and in that period the enzymes metabolized most of the gluten. In modern baking you aim to reduce turnaround time, so that you can either have more output or less capital, and therefore it employs chemical or mechanical leavening more than traditional biological leavening. That means the chemical composition of the bread coming out is simply different and our digestive systems are, in some cases, less able to process it.

There is also a long debate about gluten intolerance as an allergy, whether that is something inherited or acquired, do dieticians rush to diagnose this, etc., which people get very animated on. Without offering an opinion on that, my point is that for a lot of people this is a consequence of the way baking bread has changed, and as such there's no reason why Tibetan medicine should have much to say about that problem.
I say poppycock.
Please read a bit about bread making and the role of the gluten-gliadin:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten- ... s-it-work/
and here is an unusually bright and seemingly well researched article from the net:
https://www.pantrymama.com/is-sourdough ... uten-free/
Here you can find the pathophysiology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-related_disorders
Furthermore, here you can read about the short history:
https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-dis ... c-history/
Interestingly enough the vague term of digestive heat have also mentioned by Aretaeus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_d ... aeus_142-0
Not going to read a bunch of links without knowing what you want me to see. What’s your disagreement?
Even with long fermentation and wild starters there will be (and was) enough gluten in the bread to trigger the response of the immune system.
Even in 'ancient times'.
The Fault, Dear PeterC, is not in our modern bread,
But scientifically speaking: Who knows, but there are chances and possibilities (and of course risks).
PeterC
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by PeterC »

AmidaB wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:14 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:56 pm
AmidaB wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:39 pm
I say poppycock.
Please read a bit about bread making and the role of the gluten-gliadin:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/gluten- ... s-it-work/
and here is an unusually bright and seemingly well researched article from the net:
https://www.pantrymama.com/is-sourdough ... uten-free/
Here you can find the pathophysiology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-related_disorders
Furthermore, here you can read about the short history:
https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-dis ... c-history/
Interestingly enough the vague term of digestive heat have also mentioned by Aretaeus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_d ... aeus_142-0
Not going to read a bunch of links without knowing what you want me to see. What’s your disagreement?
Even with long fermentation and wild starters there will be (and was) enough gluten in the bread to trigger the response of the immune system.
Even in 'ancient times'.
The Fault, Dear PeterC, is not in our modern bread,
But scientifically speaking: Who knows, but there are chances and possibilities (and of course risks).
What we don’t know about the immune system vastly outweighs what we do. It is certain that the chemistry of modern bread is radically different from even a century ago, which by evolutionary standards is no time at all. Now of course it still is an immune response, so one might conclude that the fault is not in the bread, but in ourselves. But I’m still blaming the bread as that’s what changed.
Sādhaka
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Sādhaka »

If you can ferment and sprout grains that have gluten in them, that could help even more.

Many ancient cultures knew about anti-nutrients (although they didn’t call them that) in plant-based foods (most plants are literally toxic; although this fact still isn’t an good argument for utilizing synthetic chemicals in our food & medicine) and how to remove them through natural processing methods such as sprouting, fermenting, removing the skin and/or seeds from nightshades, etc.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Inedible
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Inedible »

I read that a lot of people who think they can't have wheat are actually having trouble with Roundup, the chemical poison on the wheat.
Sādhaka
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Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?

Post by Sādhaka »

Inedible wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:26 am I read that a lot of people who think they can't have wheat are actually having trouble with Roundup, the chemical poison on the wheat.

Quite possible. Yet I’ve also read that wheat is one of the few factory-farmed things that is for some reason not often sprayed with monsanto’s/bayer’s roundup; not directly anyway.
I’ve also read that many gluten-free products have roundup in them (and I’ve noticed that most gluten-free products are not organic).

In any case, gluten is an type of anti-nutrient related to lectins, and some can handle lectins better than others.

A little bit of lectins may be okay for some people; but better to avoid or at least reduce in general.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
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