Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

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PeterC
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:30 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:27 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:19 pm
I'm curious whether you take issue with the common depiction of 伽藍菩薩 as Guan Yu as well? And the connection started with previous Karmapas, so not sure if it needs to be framed as a specifically 17th Karmapa problem.
Syncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>
The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:09 am
Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:30 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:27 pm

Syncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>
The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
PeterC
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:25 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:09 am
Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:30 am

I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>
The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
I rather like the social interpretation. Sha is the Confucian scholar who likes to pontificate but doesn’t know anything useful, Zhu is the official who’s main skill is eating and drinking, XZ is the monk who just prays and bemoans his predicament but can’t get anything done. The only useful members of the group are the white horse, who is always loyal and dependable, and Sun; the two of them represent the common people (workers and traders).
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:58 am
AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:25 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:09 am

The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
I rather like the social interpretation. Sha is the Confucian scholar who likes to pontificate but doesn’t know anything useful, Zhu is the official who’s main skill is eating and drinking, XZ is the monk who just prays and bemoans his predicament but can’t get anything done. The only useful members of the group are the white horse, who is always loyal and dependable, and Sun; the two of them represent the common people (workers and traders).
A special rendering of the roles, but I have difficulty perceiving Sun as trader. However, both the ex-HCM and ex-Dragon are almost bull's-eye.
Interestingly, among the main and above mentioned personae Sun is the only character who plays himself in his original form.
PeterC
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:00 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:58 am
AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:25 am
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
I rather like the social interpretation. Sha is the Confucian scholar who likes to pontificate but doesn’t know anything useful, Zhu is the official who’s main skill is eating and drinking, XZ is the monk who just prays and bemoans his predicament but can’t get anything done. The only useful members of the group are the white horse, who is always loyal and dependable, and Sun; the two of them represent the common people (workers and traders).
A special rendering of the roles, but I have difficulty perceiving Sun as trader. However, both the ex-HCM and ex-Dragon are almost bull's-eye.
Interestingly, among the main and above mentioned personae Sun is the only character who plays himself in his original form.
Sun and white horse represent idealized aspects of the ordinary Chinese people: capacity for hard work, and pragmatic cunning. Sun’s skills were tricks he learned anyway (the 72 changes he got the Taoist to teach him), that’s not what defines him, it’s his ability to find a way out of any difficult situation.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

An old Chinese painter and sword master I once met (he was the teacher of a friend of mine and lived in the same US city) told me that “Monkey is originally Tao but cannot escape Buddha’s hand” referring to Sun WuKong’s futile attempt to fly out of Buddha’s hand even though he leapt a thousand miles. Of course, the story of Monkey begins with him crashing a party of Taoist immortals. But aside from the idea that XusnZang’s traveling companions are really all in his mind, the legend is also a kind of Buddhism-beats-Taoism propaganda piece. These guys also hang out in my Meditation area.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

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AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:25 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:09 am
Tenma wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:30 am

I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>
The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
It was here I think. There was a huge debate with Greg (grigoris) on the topic as he does a martial art where warriors pray to hanuman as a protector.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:14 pm that’s not what defines him, it’s his ability to find a way out of any difficult situation.
…that he keeps creating for himself. Actually, he doesn’t really find a way out.

The journey to India is full of protectors who Monkey thinks are obstacles. He immediately starts battling them, and right before killing then, his big ego speaks up and he basically says “I am the great Monkey King! You are no match for my King Fu!” And the defeated foe replies, “what? You are the monkey king? You stupid ass hole. I’ve been waiting here guarding the path for your quest. You should have been here weeks ago!” But of course the reason why the delay (really, a metaphor for the delay to realization) is constantly happening is that the monkey problem keeps repeating itself: the more that monkey gets into fights, the longer it is taking to reach India. Once the mistake is realized, everybody is happy, and they move on to the next chapter, where monkey gets into another fight with someone who is there to help them.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:49 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:14 pm
AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:00 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:58 am

I rather like the social interpretation. Sha is the Confucian scholar who likes to pontificate but doesn’t know anything useful, Zhu is the official who’s main skill is eating and drinking, XZ is the monk who just prays and bemoans his predicament but can’t get anything done. The only useful members of the group are the white horse, who is always loyal and dependable, and Sun; the two of them represent the common people (workers and traders).
A special rendering of the roles, but I have difficulty perceiving Sun as trader. However, both the ex-HCM and ex-Dragon are almost bull's-eye.
Interestingly, among the main and above mentioned personae Sun is the only character who plays himself in his original form.
Sun and white horse represent idealized aspects of the ordinary Chinese people: capacity for hard work, and pragmatic cunning. Sun’s skills were tricks he learned anyway (the 72 changes he got the Taoist to teach him), that’s not what defines him, it’s his ability to find a way out of any difficult situation.
Hard work and pragmatic cunning always needed indeed. For surviving in the central kingdom surrounded by demons and ghosts.
72 changes = mastery over the 72000 nadis/jingluos. According to Liu that in itself not able to free sy from samsara - sorry for my stubbornness :anjali:
Sangharama = Guan Gong = general Guan Yu.
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:33 pm An old Chinese painter and sword master I once met (he was the teacher of a friend of mine and lived in the same US city) told me that “Monkey is originally Tao but cannot escape Buddha’s hand” referring to Sun WuKong’s futile attempt to fly out of Buddha’s hand even though he leapt a thousand miles. Of course, the story of Monkey begins with him crashing a party of Taoist immortals. But aside from the idea that XusnZang’s traveling companions are really all in his mind, the legend is also a kind of Buddhism-beats-Taoism propaganda piece. These guys also hang out in my Meditation area.
An almost general poor understanding from both sides which is a very unfortunate 'situation'. Due to the intense cross-pollination several (almost all?) taoist lineage/school give up on the so called 'corpse guarding' attitude many hundred years ago.
The lingering illusion of the stench of the monkey's piss. :rolling:
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:34 pm
AmidaB wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:25 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:09 am

The idea that Sun Wukong is somehow related to Hanuman is pure academic speculation. No evidence has ever been put forward beyond “hey, they both look like monkeys”. (Hanuman was of course not a monkey anyway.)
:good:
Sun Wu Kong more or less = monkey mind. The Journey to the West interpretation of Liu I-ming (or Liu Yiming) is very insightful in this regard. I have read somewhere (maybe here on the forum) that utilizing Hanuman is a really big no-no for buddhists.
It was here I think. There was a huge debate with Greg (grigoris) on the topic as he does a martial art where warriors pray to hanuman as a protector.
Thanks, found it since then.
PeterC
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:41 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:14 pm that’s not what defines him, it’s his ability to find a way out of any difficult situation.
…that he keeps creating for himself. Actually, he doesn’t really find a way out.

The journey to India is full of protectors who Monkey thinks are obstacles. He immediately starts battling them, and right before killing then, his big ego speaks up and he basically says “I am the great Monkey King! You are no match for my King Fu!” And the defeated foe replies, “what? You are the monkey king? You stupid ass hole. I’ve been waiting here guarding the path for your quest. You should have been here weeks ago!” But of course the reason why the delay (really, a metaphor for the delay to realization) is constantly happening is that the monkey problem keeps repeating itself: the more that monkey gets into fights, the longer it is taking to reach India. Once the mistake is realized, everybody is happy, and they move on to the next chapter, where monkey gets into another fight with someone who is there to help them.
There are at least a few real dangers - demons who want to eat XZ. The white bone demon, for example. But yes, he is a bit of a jerk.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Now that this conversation has gotten totally derailed from the original post, I just want to say that my favorite Journey To The West film is ‘demons strike back’.
:offtopic:
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PeterC
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:01 pm Now that this conversation has gotten totally derailed from the original post, I just want to say that my favorite Journey To The West film is ‘demons strike back’.
:offtopic:
It’s the fake Sun Wukong episode for me. Even Guanyin can’t tell them apart, only Vairocana can.
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AmidaB
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by AmidaB »

Dragon Ball - the original serie :smile:
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