Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:46 am I don't like the idea being propounded on this thread that western philosophy is always aimed at mere 'speculation' or 'mere intellectualizing'.



So, you know, a bit of credit where it's due.
I don’t think anyone here is denying the impact that philosophy has had and continues to have on the world. It’s unquestionably benefited us in important worldly ways that shouldn’t be undervalued. But the argument is specifically against the assertion that Buddhadharma, and Buddhist practitioners, in the modern world are remiss in not turning to Western Philosophy to partake of what it has to offer to the path to liberation; and that Buddhadharma is lacking whatever that is.

I am simply arguing that specifically as it relates to the path to liberation itself, Western Philosophy is extraneous, not that it’s objectively worthless altogether.
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tobes
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:13 am
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm

My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think you're universalizing what kind of philosopher your dad was, and maybe what kind of department he was in, with the incredibly diverse range of traditions we tend to call western (even this point is questionable, if you consider the relation between the Bactrian Kingdom India and some ancient Greek schools).
I am referring to modern academy as it exists in most Anglo-American schools. The point of mentioning Garfield was that Smith’s program is actually incredibly diverse. But I have had similar breakdowns with Jay, Hubbard, etc., because they are not interested in liberation per se, but rather arguments and ideas. That’s what they are paid for, and they are quite expert in their fields.
In a sense I'm saying the same thing; the problem here is the narrow focus on argumentation which is the hallmark of Analytic philosophy.

Existential, phenomenological and soteriological concerns can definitely be found in other (western) traditions.
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tobes
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:24 am
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:46 am I don't like the idea being propounded on this thread that western philosophy is always aimed at mere 'speculation' or 'mere intellectualizing'.

It can of course fall into such things. But so can Buddhism. In both cases, this says something about the agent doing Buddhism or philosophy, but not necessarily very much about what Buddhism or philosophy actually are.

Philosophy generally aims at truth (most contemporary philosophers I have met have this as an innate motivation, and it is a noble one). It tries to resolve intractable problems that other disciplines can't or won't try to resolve - so it is indeed pragmatic too. It has given birth to just about every other major discipline of knowledge - most of which we rely upon to fly our planes and structure our societies - so there is plenty of proof in the pudding that philosophy has not remained mere abstract theory.

So, you know, a bit of credit where it's due.
The aim of Buddhadharma is liberation, it presupposes a number of things foreign to what we call modern philosophy in the West. Indeed, “philosophy” as a program does not even exist in Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma does not aim for “truth for truths sake,” as conceived by westerners, an abstract principle or ideal, since it is not attainable conceptually, from a Buddhist pov.

You are conflating so called “natural philosophy,” which eventually became “science” with what we today understand as philosophy., which has largely abandoned the search for first principles.

It does not serve our purposes here to make anachronistic claims.

But all of this is really outside the scope of Buddhadharma.
I think you're seriously underestimating the drive to discover truth, insight, knowledge, wisdom etc in philosophers past and present.

Nonetheless, I agree that Buddhadharma operates in a different way.
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tobes
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions

Post by tobes »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:12 am
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:46 am I don't like the idea being propounded on this thread that western philosophy is always aimed at mere 'speculation' or 'mere intellectualizing'.



So, you know, a bit of credit where it's due.
I don’t think anyone here is denying the impact that philosophy has had and continues to have on the world. It’s unquestionably benefited us in important worldly ways that shouldn’t be undervalued. But the argument is specifically against the assertion that Buddhadharma, and Buddhist practitioners, in the modern world are remiss in not turning to Western Philosophy to partake of what it has to offer to the path to liberation; and that Buddhadharma is lacking whatever that is.

I am simply arguing that specifically as it relates to the path to liberation itself, Western Philosophy is extraneous, not that it’s objectively worthless altogether.
It may or may not help. It may or may not hinder.

Depends a very great deal on the dispositions of the agent.
Malcolm
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:37 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:13 am
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:44 am

I think you're universalizing what kind of philosopher your dad was, and maybe what kind of department he was in, with the incredibly diverse range of traditions we tend to call western (even this point is questionable, if you consider the relation between the Bactrian Kingdom India and some ancient Greek schools).
I am referring to modern academy as it exists in most Anglo-American schools. The point of mentioning Garfield was that Smith’s program is actually incredibly diverse. But I have had similar breakdowns with Jay, Hubbard, etc., because they are not interested in liberation per se, but rather arguments and ideas. That’s what they are paid for, and they are quite expert in their fields.
In a sense I'm saying the same thing; the problem here is the narrow focus on argumentation which is the hallmark of Analytic philosophy.

Existential, phenomenological and soteriological concerns can definitely be found in other (western) traditions.
Again, the conversation breaks down as soon as the goals of Buddhadharma are made clear—just look at the vain attempt to interpret Dzogchen through western phenomenology aka Guenther. He has done more than any other scholar to set Dzogchen studies back decades. Now one has to pile through reams of bullshit he has inspired in his followers, likewise with Thurman and Wittgenstein, etc. it’s all basically hermeneutical malpractice.
Malcolm
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:41 am
I think you're seriously underestimating the drive to discover truth, insight, knowledge, wisdom etc in philosophers past and present.

Nonetheless, I agree that Buddhadharma operates in a different way.
People like to climb all kinds of mountains, high and low. I am only interested in one of them, the highest.
oldbob
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Practice matters.

As a practioner, formal sitting - 6 tuns per day, and thumb to mala - in front of an appropriate thanka, are what worked for me.

Yes, passion for practice matters and you should always seek the highest peak, even if it is empty of self nature.

The politics of centers leads to much grief. Goes with the territory.

Search for and read the “30 Pieces of advice,” by Ven. Longchenpa.

Then I prayed to meet a Lama who could teach everything and everyone openly. I found this wish-fulfilling gem in ChNN. ChNN would be asked to teach and he would answer the request.

ChNN gave total freedom. Anyone could practice whatever they had received.

If anyone had a question they could meet with ChNN after a retreat or send him an email.

This worked for awhile and then after receiving many practices students complained asking “what should I practice” over and over until he created the Santi Maha Sangha program of 9 levels - and that kept the question-askers busy - and still does.

ChNN allowed recordings. These audio and video recordings exist and are preserved at Merigar.

So one possible future for engaging with Dharma would be receive the recorded Dharma teachings of ChNN and apply them in practice as allowed by your circumstances. Of course you may need to find a lineage holder to receive Direct Introduction, Lung reading authority and oral explanation. At his peak ChNN had over 4000 followers on his webcasts. It should not be hard to find lineage holders.

Yes, also finding living kindly Dzogchen Masters is still possible: Garchen Rinpoche and Lama Lena among many.

ChNN was a kindly Dzogchen Master and his living lineage can be contacted today.

Best,

:heart:
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Nilasarasvati
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

Others have said far better what I was trying to say in regard to cultural chauvinism. I still think it is a violation of the samayas to disparage any religious path that can lead to higher rebirths. And forgive me but Richard Dawkins is garbage. I was raised Mormon, I despise evangelical Christianity and abrahamic religion in general gives me headaches, of course, but whatever I was saying I apparently wasn't skilled enough to convey.

In a teaching by Jetsun Khandro Rinpoche, she once stated that (paraphrasing) "seen with the correct view, your mandala could even contain Mohammed. It could contain Jesus Christ." Obviously this is taken totally out of context and I cannot remember other relevant details. I wish others could help me strain to understand what that might mean, rather than treating the speculative possibility as an endorsement of Christianity itself and feeling that I'm trying to argue for a unitarian universalist Buddhism. I'm absolutely not.

I thought that ideas of Hell/Heaven and most certainly the idea of a Soul and an afterlife were not Canon until later readings by Church Fathers. The soul in particular was a platonic idea.To the present day to my understanding Judaism still lacks concretized ideas of an afterlife. I thought this was common knowledge, and as a result have no sources to share, and hoped others would echo hearing similar. But I have no idea.
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Nilasarasvati
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:44 pm
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:41 am
I think you're seriously underestimating the drive to discover truth, insight, knowledge, wisdom etc in philosophers past and present.

Nonetheless, I agree that Buddhadharma operates in a different way.
People like to climb all kinds of mountains, high and low. I am only interested in one of them, the highest.
I had written all of the below statement even before you said this quote above, but which encapsulates everything I need to tell you. I wish you'd read Susan Sontag's notes on Camp. The quote above sounds like something from a Schwarzenegger movie. Or even something that Tommy Wiseau would say. Do you realize how grandiose that sounds?

I have feedback that I unfortunately feel compelled to share in a public forum. I would have sent a private message, but you've disabled those. You may not "be here to make friends" but I really hope you'll think seriously the fact that your tone consistently makes me feel that you have so little regard for me (And others) that I should go crawl under a rock and die.

I have no idea how you mean to come across, but even employing the most generous readings possible, I still feel waves of contempt, disdain, and superiority. Your tone and patterns of constant invalidation are ultimately one of the main reasons I stopped coming back here in 2013. If I could delete my account on here, I would. Instead I think I'll just try to drift away again. I want to make friends who practice dharma, and learn and share insights with those who have a sincere wish for my happiness and progress on the path. I find none of the above happening on here, and its in a large part due to the norms that make this place feel more like a competition than a conversation.

You are not responsible for how I interpret your words, but you're intelligent enough to know that if you see one mouse, there are probably 30, and if one person is interpreting your words this way, and speaking up about it, how many more are reading what you write silently, and never participating on this forum for fear of having their head held underwater by an extremely authoritative practitioner who Only Climbs The Highest Mountain.
PeterC
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PeterC »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:08 am And forgive me but Richard Dawkins is garbage.
What I like about Richard Dawkins is that the people who get really infuriated by him always seem completely unable to put forward a cogent argument to refute, well, anything he says. Can you?
Archie2009
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Archie2009 »

And yet, Dawkins' approach to Climbing Mount Improbable should appeal more to a gradualist. ;)
Malcolm
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:19 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:44 pm
tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:41 am
I think you're seriously underestimating the drive to discover truth, insight, knowledge, wisdom etc in philosophers past and present.

Nonetheless, I agree that Buddhadharma operates in a different way.
People like to climb all kinds of mountains, high and low. I am only interested in one of them, the highest.
I had written all of the below statement even before you said this quote above, but which encapsulates everything I need to tell you. I wish you'd read Susan Sontag's notes on Camp. The quote above sounds like something from a Schwarzenegger movie. Or even something that Tommy Wiseau would say. Do you realize how grandiose that sounds?
By highest, I mean the only one that actually leads to liberation.
I have feedback that I unfortunately feel compelled to share in a public forum.
Ok.

I would have sent a private message, but you've disabled those. You may not "be here to make friends" but I really hope you'll think seriously the fact that your tone consistently makes me feel that you have so little regard for me (And others) that I should go crawl under a rock and die.
It is unfortunate you have such feelings. I am not the cause of them.
I have no idea how you mean to come across,
I don't mean to come across in anyway whatsoever. I say what I think. That's it.
but even employing the most generous readings possible, I still feel waves of contempt, disdain, and superiority.
It is unfortunate you have such feelings, but again, I am not the cause of your feelings.
Your tone and patterns of constant invalidation are ultimately one of the main reasons I stopped coming back here in 2013.
These are your projections, you own them, not me.
If I could delete my account on here, I would. Instead I think I'll just try to drift away again. I want to make friends who practice dharma, and learn and share insights with those who have a sincere wish for my happiness and progress on the path.
If you bothered to stop and think about it, all that I do here and elsewhere is encourage people to practice the dharma. I do this because I desire that people have ultimate happiness, freedom from afflictions.
I find none of the above happening on here, and its in a large part due to the norms that make this place feel more like a competition than a conversation.
That has to do with your unreasonable expectations of an internet bulletin board, and nothing to do with what actually goes on here.
You are not responsible for how I interpret your words,
Correct.
but you're intelligent enough to know that if you see one mouse, there are probably 30, and if one person is interpreting your words this way, and speaking up about it, how many more are reading what you write silently, and never participating on this forum for fear of having their head held underwater by an extremely authoritative practitioner who Only Climbs The Highest Mountain.
You can't please everyone, so I make no attempt to please anyone.
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Ayu
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Ayu »

This topic is locked, because the OP decided to leave.
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