Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

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tomdzogchen27
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Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by tomdzogchen27 »

Julian Daizan Skinner has permission from an authentic lineage to teach both in the Rinzai and Soto Zen schools. Nevertheless, on his website (https://zenways.org/breakthrough-to-zen-retreats/), he offers an intensive retreat period of 64 hours (both in person and online) and he claims (in this youtube video, starting at the 51:33 mark, that 50 to 60% of people who participate in this retreat (even with no prior meditation experience), discover their true nature.

Now, even though this master has all the credentials of being an authentic teacher, I am concerned about these claims. I am not saying they are necessarily fake, but whenever I have found groups that make these kinds of grandiose claims, I tend to find out they are cults.

I am asking because, despite this particular retreat, the rest of his teaching style sounds very appealing. Any of you have any information? Made a google search and wasn't able to find anything strange. Thanks!
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Disclosure: I know absolutely nothing about this system.

That said...

Sounds too easy and too good to be true. And to be honest, carries a whiff of new age hucksterism, if you will forgive me.

It is also suspicious to me that he claims both Rinzai and Soto lineage. Is he claiming to be formally ordained in both systems, and if so, at what level?

Take my words with a grain of salt, because I am a bit of a Zen snob, for good or for Ill. My teacher is a 15th-generation Rinzai priest who runs a temple in Japan and he went through many hard, sweaty years of both formal study and practical training before assuming his robes and titles. I don't know how credentialing is handled in the west, but it is hard for me to imagine somebody being fully, authentically, and deeply credentialed in both sects at a high enough level to lead a valid organization unless they had undergone many many years if not decades of punishing and ambitious academic study at 2 seperate 4-year universities (one for each sect) and practical training at 2 seperate large traditional temples (one for each sect). Plus making the rounds with the begging bowls and the like, and lengthy local practice at a smaller temple for each sect under 2 personal masters.

I'm just a humble lay practioner though, so take my suspicions with a grain of salt.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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tomdzogchen27
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by tomdzogchen27 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:27 am
It is also suspicious to me that he claims both Rinzai and Soto lineage. Is he claiming to be formally ordained in both systems, and if so, at what level?
Agree! Thank you for sharing your experience and viewpoint. This is the information that is shown in their website (his teacher is Shinzan Miyamae Roshi and he practiced as a Soto Zen monk for 14 years in Japan, before starting in Rinzai):

"JULIAN DAIZAN SKINNER IS THE FIRST ENGLISHMAN TO GO TO JAPAN AND BECOME A ROSHI OR ZEN MASTER IN THE RIGOROUS RINZAI TRADITION OF ZEN. OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO, HE GAVE UP A PROMISING CAREER AS A SCIENTIST IN THE PHARMACEUTICALS INDUSTRY, SOLD HIS HOUSE, GAVE ALL THE MONEY AWAY AND ENTERED A ZEN MONASTERY.

Over many years of strict training, in Japan and the west, Daizan Roshi received Dharma Transmission and permission to teach in both the Rinzai and Soto lineages of Zen. He has also undergone training as an enlightenment intensive master with Lawrence Noyes, leading student of the creator of enlightenment intensives, Charles Berner. Daizan Roshi received inka from Shinzan Miyamae Roshi of Gyokuryuji, with whom he continues to study (see below).

Upon returning from Japan in 2007, Daizan Roshi went on walking pilgrimage up the centre of the island of Britain from the south tip of the Isle of Wight to the north tip of Scotland, living solely on alms food. He met many of his students from different parts of the UK during this time. Daizan Roshi currently offers sanzen (‘interviews’ or training encounters with his students) at Yugagyo Dojo (Zen Yoga) in London as well as using Skype for remote students. Together with his students, he has established, “Yugagyo Dojo”, a Zen training place in London. Daizan Roshi was teaching at The Buddhist Society, the oldest non-sectarian Buddhist Society in Europe, until his retirement from the post in December 2011.

His Zen study incorporated yoga practice. He has also studied yoga in Europe, America and Asia. He brings this wide range of yoga experience to sharing a practice that combines physical challenge with mental and spiritual development. He is registered with the Yoga Alliance at the 500-hour level and is registered with the Independent Yoga Network as a Yoga Elder with more than 5000 hours of successful teaching experience. Daizan trains yoga teachers to find an expression that is authentically their own and will bring them success when they teach. His knowledge and training in Zen gives him the background to guide you on your spiritual journey."

What do you think?
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by shaunc »

In my life experience anything that sounds to good to be true usually is. I do not know this man and have never heard of him before but I call BS.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Hmm. He does seem to have clocked a significant amount of time in the trenches, as it were. Assuming his claims are valid.

I don't know what to think. But if I had a Rinzai Inkan-shoumei recognition (the true meaning of the often-abused term "roshi") and permission to teach in Soto too, I'd think it would be more in keeping with the dignity of the tradition to just open a Rinzai or Soto temple. Why "ZENWWAYS"? It sounds like "Amway" which is a MLM scam. Just doesn't pass the smell test for me. The whole "X% of our students gain enlightenment in blustering record time!' claim also strikes me as a dissonant chord and just kind of tacky, to be frank.

Dabbling in Yoga and trying to jam that onto his already-quite-full Soto/Rinzai plate raises red flags too. Again, feels syncretic and slapdash.

I guess as stated I'm a fuddy-Duddy traditionalist and take a dim view in general of Zen 'innovation' after, say, the days of Master Hakuin in the 1700s.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:45 am Julian Daizan Skinner has permission from an authentic lineage to teach both in the Rinzai and Soto Zen schools. Nevertheless, on his website (https://zenways.org/breakthrough-to-zen-retreats/), he offers an intensive retreat period of 64 hours (both in person and online) and he claims (in this youtube video, starting at the 51:33 mark, that 50 to 60% of people who participate in this retreat (even with no prior meditation experience), discover their true nature.
Sorry, but I've listened to the suggested segment a couple times now and he doesn't say what you quote above. He says that 50 to 60% of people after 64 hours of his retreat process get a "clear sense of where this is all going." I've never met the guy, studied with, nor even heard of before today but I understand him saying just that. After a retreat people get a gist of the purpose of Zen.

Does he make this claim of "discovering true nature" at some other point in the presentation?
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by tomdzogchen27 »

jake wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:08 pm
Sorry, but I've listened to the suggested segment a couple times now and he doesn't say what you quote above. He says that 50 to 60% of people after 64 hours of his retreat process get a "clear sense of where this is all going." I've never met the guy, studied with, nor even heard of before today but I understand him saying just that. After a retreat people get a gist of the purpose of Zen.

Does he make this claim of "discovering true nature" at some other point in the presentation?
You are right, sorry about that, I am not english native and got confused with the claim. Nevertheless, in their website they have this:

"These retreats are designed specifically for you to find out your true nature – to find out who you really are (enlightenment or kensho in Japanese). This intensive format is suitable for those with no prior meditation experience, but can also be very powerful for those who have an ongoing or developing practice."

There is another part of the video were he equates this with stream-entry as was taught by the Buddha and says that it is fairly easy to attain. He gives the example of a woman who came to the retreat believing it was some sort of Spa, and even though she was confused at first, decided to stay because she had already paid. With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Unless they present it in a pie chart I won't believe their claims. Also they should quantify how many disturbing emotions their average student liberates every day and how the procedure can be modified so there is an increase in disturbing emotions liberated in the next quarter. :coffee:
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by FiveSkandhas »

tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pm
With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.
Poor old Bodhidharma allegedly had to cut off his eyelids and face a wall for nine years on his path...perhaps he should have gone to Zenways to get the job done...

But of course in Rinzai, a distinction is made between "experiencing kensho," which is not considered to be limited to extremely advanced practioners, and the much harder work of "stabilizing kensho," which usually takes a great deal of effort.

I guess I shouldn't be too irreverent...for all I know, the woman in question is of exceptionally high aptitude...
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pmThere is another part of the video were he equates this with stream-entry as was taught by the Buddha and says that it is fairly easy to attain. He gives the example of a woman who came to the retreat believing it was some sort of Spa, and even though she was confused at first, decided to stay because she had already paid. With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.
Maybe she discovered that her true nature is someone who easily confuses things like zen retreats and spa resorts, and should practice mindful attention to the fine print, and who, unable to secure a refund, is all the wiser now.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by KeithA »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:42 pm
tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pmThere is another part of the video were he equates this with stream-entry as was taught by the Buddha and says that it is fairly easy to attain. He gives the example of a woman who came to the retreat believing it was some sort of Spa, and even though she was confused at first, decided to stay because she had already paid. With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.
Maybe she discovered that her true nature is someone who easily confuses things like zen retreats and spa resorts, and should practice mindful attention to the fine print, and who, unable to secure a refund, is all the wiser now.
:rolling:
While this this whole thing is just red-flag city, I did find it interesting that the retreat is donation based, as far as costs go.

From the event website linked in the OP:
It’s important to us that these retreats stay as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. As such, we do not charge a fixed amount for these retreats, and instead encourage you to donate between £100 and £250, depending on your means. This money goes towards covering Zenways’ costs and expenses, and any extra will go towards establishing a rural retreat centre. If you’re in a condition of hardship, please get in touch and we can discuss what would work best for you. If the retreat surpassed your expectation, there will be the possibility of making an extra donation after the retreat either in cash or by bank transfer/PayPal.

Accommodation should be booked and paid for separately with the venue – further details will be sent to you after you’ve booked your place.
_/|\_
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Rev. Koji »

I feel everyone's concerns and I wanted to dislike him, but after listening to his interviews I've come to appreciate him.

Why did I want to dislike him? His branding is very polished in a wellness-capitalist kind of way. He has a kind of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" placidity in his teaching/promotional videos. Most of us that trained in a traditional way will probably look sideways at his breakthrough weekends and 7+2 day teacher trainings. The way I came up in zen, there was no real dialogue about where it's going, not much explanation given, certainly no talk about becoming a teacher for the first 10-15-20 years, we just sat a lot and worked even more and theoretically something transformational happens...there were mixed results all around. I actually kind of appreciate how he's translated it all into something more modular with clear points of entry. It takes a strange kind of person to just show up to a monastery and pour yourself into it, not knowing what the program is, when it ends and what future there is for you when you leave. That's the mind I had but I was a 21 year old idiot without many options. I can't believe I'm saying it, but I kind of appreciate the way he painted the exterior of his training to make sense to the world he's operating in, the world of commerce.

Listening to his BIo, everything sounds like it adds up. The Soto authorization was by way of OBC founded by Jiyu Kennet, and since she trained in Japan her model for transmission is more like the Japanese Soto model which means something more like "full priest" rather than teacher. My friend James, for example was ordained a novice by Kennet in 1969 and got transmission in 1971! Didn't mean he was a Roshi at 23 years old. In the OBC, there's another step where you go from Brown kesa of a "full priest" to the purple kesa of a teacher. I'm not sure if Daizan made it that far in OBC, but as he spent 14 years there, he might have, which mean's he probably spent 5-10 years training in Rinzai before receiving Inka. Again, not terribly unbelievable, especially since he was showing up with 14 years of training under his belt.

The breakthrough weekends sound like a mix of zazen and dyadic inquiry. He gets very close to overstating its impact, though I don't think he ever really uses the word kensho. I don't think it's massively unlikely that out of say 20 people 10 people can have some sort of intimation of non-self or ground of mind through some sitting and pointed inquiry. Why not? I think it comes down to what you think kensho is, sounds like he's talking about a mini-kensho, or intimation of emptiness, which isn't terribly uncommon. But then it sounds like he kind of equated it with stream entry which is a booboo, but maybe its a casual/innocent one because he's not coming from a nikaya-informed framework, but trying to borrow the terminology.
He mostly sounds like a stand up chap. And truth be told, with the limited options in the English speaking Rinzai world, I'm more comfortable with tacky marketing than toxic masculinity.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Rev. Koji »

Oh and yeah the name Zenways sounds kinda generic and corporate, but it's just a translation of the name of the organization his teacher founded in Japan, Zendo Kyodan (禅道教団).
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by reiun »

Trying to meld Naikan Therapy and Berner's version of enlightenment with Zen, Rinzai or Soto, and then calling it zen, is a no go, afaic.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by reiun »

tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pm There is another part of the video were he equates this with stream-entry as was taught by the Buddha and says that it is fairly easy to attain. He gives the example of a woman who came to the retreat believing it was some sort of Spa, and even though she was confused at first, decided to stay because she had already paid. With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.
Enough said. Pure crap.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by seeker242 »

youtube video, starting at the 51:33 mark, that 50 to 60% of people who participate in this retreat (even with no prior meditation experience), discover their true nature.
I don't have any experience with this teacher but I did watch the video and he doesn't actually say that.

He said 50 to 60% of people who participate "get a clear a definite sense of where this is all going"

That doesn't mean they "discovered their true nature". That could mean anything.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by seeker242 »

tomdzogchen27 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pm
jake wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:08 pm
Sorry, but I've listened to the suggested segment a couple times now and he doesn't say what you quote above. He says that 50 to 60% of people after 64 hours of his retreat process get a "clear sense of where this is all going." I've never met the guy, studied with, nor even heard of before today but I understand him saying just that. After a retreat people get a gist of the purpose of Zen.

Does he make this claim of "discovering true nature" at some other point in the presentation?
You are right, sorry about that, I am not english native and got confused with the claim. Nevertheless, in their website they have this:

"These retreats are designed specifically for you to find out your true nature – to find out who you really are (enlightenment or kensho in Japanese). This intensive format is suitable for those with no prior meditation experience, but can also be very powerful for those who have an ongoing or developing practice."

There is another part of the video were he equates this with stream-entry as was taught by the Buddha and says that it is fairly easy to attain. He gives the example of a woman who came to the retreat believing it was some sort of Spa, and even though she was confused at first, decided to stay because she had already paid. With no prior meditation experience, she discovered her true nature in less than 3 days.

Every zen retreat everywhere is specifically designed to discover your true nature. And someone "discovering it" quickly is not really a cause for suspicion because you don't really know what depth of discovery he is talking about. He could easily be talking about a very first glimpse, etc. It's also not that inaccurate to equate kensho with stream-entry. And he never actually said the "spa lady attained kensho". He said "she gets it". That could mean virtually anything.
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Dairen »

Hi,

I just came across this thread and thought I might give a first hand account rather than speculation. Whilst a degree of caution against anything unknown is wise, we cannot truly live without going beyond our comfort zones into the unknown. For me Zen has been an unfolding journey; letting go of judgements and resistances to how things really are. Naturally this takes time, so devoting a period to intense introspection is far more effective at realising our true nature, as I am sure most of you are aware. I can certainly say that Zenways is about as far from being a cult as it is possible to get; there is no financial or time commitment required, you can join and leave the sangha as you wish and the degree to which you get involved or not is entirely down to you.

Daizan is not saying that you will suddenly and completely realise to the fullest extent in the way the the Buddha did, but you can, and very likely will, have an enlightenment experience, or kensho, on one of these retreats - maybe small or maybe really big, or maybe you won't at all - nothing is certain, but even if you don't have a moment of awakening the process will almost inevitably have a profound impact on you. This is not a sales pitch (almost everything Zenways does is donations based) it is just the truth as I have experienced it in attending a number of these retreats over the years.

But rather than take my word for it, go to the Dojo in Camberwell, if you live anywhere near London. Visit when there is a meeting on, speak to Daizan and members of the sangha and make a decision based on what you experience - maybe it is right for you, maybe not, it is your life, your journey.

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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

How is the above a first hand account exactly, and of what? Did you attend a retreat, what was your connection to the organization?
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Re: Any experience with Zenways? They claim that 50 to 60% of participants discover their true nature after a retreat.

Post by Iansan »

I have had some (minimal) experience of Zenways so I thought maybe an insight. Found them on a search online and thought pretty much as many on here: very polished, very ‘positive thinking’, very ‘marketed’, with all the hallmarks of the proverbial quick fix. However I was at a low point in practice where I was struggling, as I’m sure we all do, with juggling practice with modern, everyday life and since I have had no access to a teacher I took up the opportunity to contact them for advice. I didn’t expect much. To my pleasant surprise I got a reply within a few short hours from a chap who empathised with my problem and reassured me that it is very common. I’ll not go into the advice or the subsequent messages between us but suffice to say that there was no pressure from him, he genuinely helped, he didn’t want anything in return, there were no requests for money or to ‘join’ them and there was absolutely nothing cultish about any of it. He only replies to me and never contacts me unbidden and his only pro-active statement was simply to say that if I ever feel the need for a retreat or simply a face to face talk just to message him or call him, but only if I ever feel the need.
I don’t know much about them other than their own online presence but the very minimal experience I have had has been pleasant and helpful and the nearest thing I have ever had to a teacher. Genuine or charlatans? Who knows but you can only ever go off your own experience and mine was useful.
Hope this has helped in some way.


[Mod note 2023: I am locking this topic in order to prevent further 'necroing' and gossip. It's senseless to activate this topic again and again without having any valid insider information.]
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