Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
ManiThePainter
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by ManiThePainter »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:48 pm eventually, […] the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations
Are there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:48 pm
heart wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 amHe gave Patrul Rinpoche a direct introduction by beating him up and spitting in his face and calling him an old dog. Was it bad behaviour or was it fortunate for the whole lineage of Longchen Nyingtik?
The immediate problem here is assuming that every Vajrayāna practitioner is sufficiently ripened to benefit from such treatment and has sufficient faith in their teacher not to flee in terror.

Some western students hear rumors of such antics by Tibetan teachers. They then develop a kind of machismo around tolerating such displays. All I can say is that all of my gurus have been unfailingly kind to all of their students, and never hit, abused, spat upon, yelled at, or beat up anyone. Tibetans have a culture where they tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the teacher. We do not have such a culture, and to the majority of westerners tolerating such behavior looks rather cultish on the face of it. Wise teachers adapt to circumstances.

The adoption of unconventional behavior in India has a lengthy history, even by the 10th century. The Buddha recorded the behavior of ascetics during his day. Such unconventional behavior was well tolerated in the Indian context by the time of the Buddha. At first, the Tibetans were quite shocked by Indian siddhas and their behavior. Everyone forgets that Padmasambhava was not welcomed warmly by all Tibetans. There was considerable pushback to Padmasambhava by Tibetans as the more reliable early histories in which Padmasambhava is mentioned show. At this point, the person of Padmasambhava is lost in myth and legend, and the few contemporary historical glimpses we see of him the Old Tibetan Annals do not portray anything very remarkable.

By 1000 CE, the Tibetans had largely abandoned their old religion, of which only traces remain, and adopted Indian Tantric Buddhism completely, along with the magical wars siddhas were fighting with Hindus. We tend to view all of this anachronistically. But my point is, the notion of who a guru was and how he or she could treat students evolved in Tibetan society over a long period of time based on Indian antecedents. Indian Siddhas were the Marvel superheroes of Tibetan culture. We forget this, and we ought not.

Even so, was also much suspicion of Indian "atsaras" in later times as well. We have examples of Indian impersonating other more famous Indian teachers, for example, and the general suspicion of Nyingmapas of the time that many of the tantras being brought to Tibet from India were just composed by Indian pandits to rob naive Tibetan translations of gold, etc. But eventually, when the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations, we see Padmasambhava's myth cycle absorbing the deeds and personas of such famed Indians as Brahmin Vararuci (aka Loden Choksre), etc., and so on.

Thus, when we see teachers bringing up examples of Tilopa and Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa, Do Khyentse and Patrul, we have to remember we are talking about events in cultures not our own, with signifiers which are almost completely alien to the West.
Block headed West.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Malcolm »

ManiThePainter wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:48 pm eventually, […] the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations
Are there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
Many.
tingdzin
Posts: 1948
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by tingdzin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:19 pm ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:05 am
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:48 pm
eventually, […] the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations
Are there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
Many.
If you have the time, Davidson's Tibetan Renaissance is quite good, though a bit biased . Scholarship impeccable.
User avatar
ManiThePainter
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:04 pm

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by ManiThePainter »

tingdzin wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:41 am If you have the time, Davidson's Tibetan Renaissance is quite good, though a bit biased . Scholarship impeccable.
Cheers. Will give it a look.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Sangyedorje
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:54 pm

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Sangyedorje »

In reading about the crazy wisdom stuff, I'm reminded of examples of "crazy wisdom". In my opinion, true crazy wisdom has never abused anyone, it has always been about non-conventional behaviour.

I remember a story of one of my Lamas who had a student who was overcome with guilt that she couldn't let go. My Lama instructed her to carry bricks in her purse everywhere she went. So, following the guru's instruction she did. After a few days, she knew the point he was making. There was another where a student couldn't understand letting go. So, another one of my Lamas heated up a metal ball and underhand threw it to the student. At that moment, he got it. Personally, I was meditating completely normally after receiving the ngondro lung, and my lama screamed at the top of his lungs. I jumped out of my seat and said "HOLY frak SHIT JESUS!". But, right then, he said just to rest.

Crazy wisdom isn't just abusing students and making them go through terrible things. It's really about using skillful methods to deliver a point where words fail.
monlamtharchin
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 am

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by monlamtharchin »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:38 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:08 pm Yes, I knew it's attributed to Guru Rinpoche, I should have said. But indeed my question is "where"?
In several termas.
Hello Malcolm,

Are you able to point me in the direction of a source for this quote?

Thank you!
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by jet.urgyen »

Curious, i woke up thinking of this words. If this are truly GP worts, and afaik they are, one might realize ati vision but not necessarily display ati conduct, lol.

I mean, outer conduct.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”