Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

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xjh2021
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Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by xjh2021 »

Three Series of the Dzogchen Teaching: Semde, Longde and Mennagde

Other masters only teach Mennagde?
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by heart »

xjh2021 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:52 pm Three Series of the Dzogchen Teaching: Semde, Longde and Mennagde

Other masters only teach Mennagde?
No, that is not correct. This is a Semde teaching: https://www.padmasambhava.org/chiso/boo ... po-dudtsi/

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by xjh2021 »

Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Should Students learn Semde fiest?
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Tata1 »

xjh2021 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Should Students learn Semde fiest?
No. Each series is a complete path in itself.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by xjh2021 »

[quote=Tata1 post_id=630981 time=1654262426 user_id=11064]
[quote=xjh2021 post_id=630964 time=1654244515 user_id=16605]
Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Should Students learn Semde fiest?
[/quote]

No. Each series is a complete path in itself.
[/quote]

As Igor Berkhin said, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu once said that in the very beginning he had given his students the teachings from the Dzogchen Upadesha series. Later he discovered that their knowledge remained on an intellectual level. Then he started to teach Mind series (Semde) methods and the students’ knowledge developed.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Tata1 »

xjh2021 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:02 am
Tata1 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:20 pm
xjh2021 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am
Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Should Students learn Semde fiest?
No. Each series is a complete path in itself.
As Igor Berkhin said, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu once said that in the very beginning he had given his students the teachings from the Dzogchen Upadesha series. Later he discovered that their knowledge remained on an intellectual level. Then he started to teach Mind series (Semde) methods and the students’ knowledge developed.
Yes semde is very useful. But each series is a complete path in itself as chnn said manytimes
In fact in sms de upadesha preliminaries are on the base level
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:59 pm
Yes semde is very useful. But each series is a complete path in itself as chnn said manytimes
No, this is not correct. He state that klong sde and man ngag sde are complete paths, but not sems sde.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Sādhaka »

Aren’t there complete practice manuals for Semde level though?

Or perhaps it is only in Bön that there are Semde-level practice manuals…. (I believe that A-Khrid or A-Tri would be one of them; although I just did a search and saw a post by Mutsuk where she said that A-Khrid has higher-than-Semde elements with it, even if it is generally from the Semde point of View).

Anyhow, it would make sense that Semde would likely have to be combined with Completion Stage with characteristics, and/or Trul Khor/Yantra Yoga at least….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:45 pm Aren’t there complete practice manuals for Semde level though?

sems sde is the completion stage of maha and anu. ChNN clearly explained this.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:25 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:59 pm
Yes semde is very useful. But each series is a complete path in itself as chnn said manytimes
No, this is not correct. He state that klong sde and man ngag sde are complete paths, but not sems sde.
Actually in some of the books translated under his direction by some of his most trusted translators there is plenty of evidence for quite the opposite.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:25 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:59 pm
Yes semde is very useful. But each series is a complete path in itself as chnn said manytimes
No, this is not correct. He state that klong sde and man ngag sde are complete paths, but not sems sde.
Actually in some of the books translated under his direction by some of his most trusted translators there is plenty of evidence for quite the opposite.

I am basing myself off of direct statements he made in English in various retreats, for example, his pointing out that one could not attain rainbow body through sems sde, and his direct assertion it was not. So, regardless of whatever other people may have said, I know what ChNN himself said in SMS teachings, etc. YMMV
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:31 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:25 pm

No, this is not correct. He state that klong sde and man ngag sde are complete paths, but not sems sde.
Actually in some of the books translated under his direction by some of his most trusted translators there is plenty of evidence for quite the opposite.

I am basing myself off of direct statements he made in English in various retreats, for example, his pointing out that one could not attain rainbow body through sems sde, and his direct assertion it was not. So, regardless of whatever other people may have said, I know what ChNN himself said in SMS teachings, etc. YMMV
And I recall Rinpoche talking about this in Dzamling Gar as well.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:31 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:25 pm

No, this is not correct. He state that klong sde and man ngag sde are complete paths, but not sems sde.
Actually in some of the books translated under his direction by some of his most trusted translators there is plenty of evidence for quite the opposite.

I am basing myself off of direct statements he made in English in various retreats, for example, his pointing out that one could not attain rainbow body through sems sde, and his direct assertion it was not. So, regardless of whatever other people may have said, I know what ChNN himself said in SMS teachings, etc. YMMV


Well that much is clear. But then why the statements that each class is a complete path in itself. Complete means complete aka one can benefit from the ultimate fruit.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:31 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:17 pm

Actually in some of the books translated under his direction by some of his most trusted translators there is plenty of evidence for quite the opposite.

I am basing myself off of direct statements he made in English in various retreats, for example, his pointing out that one could not attain rainbow body through sems sde, and his direct assertion it was not. So, regardless of whatever other people may have said, I know what ChNN himself said in SMS teachings, etc. YMMV


Well that much is clear. But then why the statements that each class is a complete path in itself. Complete means complete aka one can benefit from the ultimate fruit.
Well, we would need to see a citation.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:31 pm


I am basing myself off of direct statements he made in English in various retreats, for example, his pointing out that one could not attain rainbow body through sems sde, and his direct assertion it was not. So, regardless of whatever other people may have said, I know what ChNN himself said in SMS teachings, etc. YMMV


Well that much is clear. But then why the statements that each class is a complete path in itself. Complete means complete aka one can benefit from the ultimate fruit.
Well, we would need to see a citation.
In substance, these three phases correspond to three
aspects of the Dzogchen teaching: "understanding"
(rtogs pa), "stabilizing" (brtan pa), and "integrating"
(bsre ba). One should not think, however, that the
practice of Dzogchen must necessarily start with Semde
and end with Mennagde; total realization can also be
achieved by practicing only one of the three series,
inasmuch as each of them is a path complete in itself. It is
simply a matter of understanding which aspect receives
greater emphasis in one series rather than another and
knowing how to embark on the path that will be most
beneficial in terms of one's capacity.”

Supreme Source “DZOGCHEN SEMDE AND THE
KUNJED GYALPO TANTRA”

There is a similar quote in Mejung Tantra.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:45 pm



Well that much is clear. But then why the statements that each class is a complete path in itself. Complete means complete aka one can benefit from the ultimate fruit.
Well, we would need to see a citation.
In substance, these three phases correspond to three
aspects of the Dzogchen teaching: "understanding"
(rtogs pa), "stabilizing" (brtan pa), and "integrating"
(bsre ba). One should not think, however, that the
practice of Dzogchen must necessarily start with Semde
and end with Mennagde; total realization can also be
achieved by practicing only one of the three series,
inasmuch as each of them is a path complete in itself. It is
simply a matter of understanding which aspect receives
greater emphasis in one series rather than another and
knowing how to embark on the path that will be most
beneficial in terms of one's capacity.”

Supreme Source “DZOGCHEN SEMDE AND THE
KUNJED GYALPO TANTRA”

There is a similar quote in Mejung Tantra.
All I can say is he said different things at different times.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:05 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 pm

Well, we would need to see a citation.
In substance, these three phases correspond to three
aspects of the Dzogchen teaching: "understanding"
(rtogs pa), "stabilizing" (brtan pa), and "integrating"
(bsre ba). One should not think, however, that the
practice of Dzogchen must necessarily start with Semde
and end with Mennagde; total realization can also be
achieved by practicing only one of the three series,
inasmuch as each of them is a path complete in itself. It is
simply a matter of understanding which aspect receives
greater emphasis in one series rather than another and
knowing how to embark on the path that will be most
beneficial in terms of one's capacity.”

Supreme Source “DZOGCHEN SEMDE AND THE
KUNJED GYALPO TANTRA”

There is a similar quote in Mejung Tantra.
All I can say is he said different things at different times.
But Somewhat in support of your original statement rinpoche, referencing longde said that it is not a practice you would do for the rest of your life. The implication is that one after confidence has been established would move one to upadesha and so on.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:05 pm
florin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:56 pm

In substance, these three phases correspond to three
aspects of the Dzogchen teaching: "understanding"
(rtogs pa), "stabilizing" (brtan pa), and "integrating"
(bsre ba). One should not think, however, that the
practice of Dzogchen must necessarily start with Semde
and end with Mennagde; total realization can also be
achieved by practicing only one of the three series,
inasmuch as each of them is a path complete in itself. It is
simply a matter of understanding which aspect receives
greater emphasis in one series rather than another and
knowing how to embark on the path that will be most
beneficial in terms of one's capacity.”

Supreme Source “DZOGCHEN SEMDE AND THE
KUNJED GYALPO TANTRA”

There is a similar quote in Mejung Tantra.
All I can say is he said different things at different times.
But Somewhat in support of your original statement rinpoche, referencing longde said that it is not a practice you would do for the rest of your life. The implication is that one after confidence has been established would move one to upadesha and so on.
I personally regard the three series as sets of views about Dzogchen, rather than hard textual divisions, because as we know, our teacher taught the unity of the three series in meaning.
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Täpa »

In the trekcho chapter in heart drops of dharmakaya Shardza Rinpoche gives two different direct introductions 1 according to semde, of which he says is for leading the followers of lowest capacity into dzogchen and 1 according to menngagde, which is for the best practitioners. Lopon Rinpoche comments that all 3 (semde longde menngagde) are aspects of dzogchen because they recognise the unification of awareness and emptiness as the final truth. On the otherside Shardza Rinpoche critices atri dzogchen because it is mainly semde.
In the togel chapter he gives 10 explanations on the differences between trekcho and togel and why togel is higher.
In point 1 he explains in trekcho all the mountains, rocks and countries have to be thought of as illusions....Togel, however, depends on the five lights by which all the objects of existence are completely liberated into light.
In the second point he explains that in trekcho the body cannot become the light body....If you do not achieve the rainbow body then you do not achieve the final body.
Furthermore i read trekcho takes a lot more of time and is a gradual path, whereas togel is much faster and direct.

Can i conclude from these explanations that semde, altough it recognises the final truth by reaching it gradually, does not result in the light body if one does not make progress to the method of menngagde? In other words: Semde remains at recognising the natural state, but matter is not integrated and seen as dreamlike or illusion, and if this view is not further developed by the means of menngagde, where everything is seen equally as the natural state, one will not achieve the rainbow body?
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Re: Semde and longde are base of Mennagde?

Post by Kai lord »

Täpa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:13 am In the trekcho chapter in heart drops of dharmakaya Shardza Rinpoche gives two different direct introductions 1 according to semde, of which he says is for leading the followers of lowest capacity into dzogchen and 1 according to menngagde, which is for the best practitioners. Lopon Rinpoche comments that all 3 (semde longde menngagde) are aspects of dzogchen because they recognise the unification of awareness and emptiness as the final truth. On the otherside Shardza Rinpoche critices atri dzogchen because it is mainly semde.
In the togel chapter he gives 10 explanations on the differences between trekcho and togel and why togel is higher.
In point 1 he explains in trekcho all the mountains, rocks and countries have to be thought of as illusions....Togel, however, depends on the five lights by which all the objects of existence are completely liberated into light.
In the second point he explains that in trekcho the body cannot become the light body....If you do not achieve the rainbow body then you do not achieve the final body.
Furthermore i read trekcho takes a lot more of time and is a gradual path, whereas togel is much faster and direct.

Can i conclude from these explanations that semde, altough it recognises the final truth by reaching it gradually, does not result in the light body if one does not make progress to the method of menngagde? In other words: Semde remains at recognising the natural state, but matter is not integrated and seen as dreamlike or illusion, and if this view is not further developed by the means of menngagde, where everything is seen equally as the natural state, one will not achieve the rainbow body?
By final body, he meant the sambhogakaya or enjoyment body that all buddhas achieved on the ten bhumi? If not, what is it?

If so, I don't think thats true since both Trekchod and Thogal lead to complete buddhahood. In fact one can achieve sambhogakaya form using the illusory body methods mentioned in HYT.

Next I take this opinion to voice something I have in mind for quite some times. Probably require another thread Moderators can spilt from here if they want.

No offense but I find many dzogchen practitioners' obsession with rainbow body of light rather amusing. Shouldn't achieving buddhahood and pure land entry our main goal this life?

Shouldn't we give more attention, discuss and ask more questions about other practices like semde, longde, anuyoga and even mahayoga instead of getting crazed over thogal most of the time?

I am saying this because for the sarma schools, this is what they do, forming discussion groups and thread over generation and completion practices. I find many of those discussions very productive. Hope people here who love kama, will be doing that for mahayoga and anuyoga in the near future. The same for Dzogchenpas here doing that for semde and longde. Of course detailed practise description need not shared.

This is just my humble opinion.
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