On buddhism and dogma

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Lavender-Thief
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On buddhism and dogma

Post by Lavender-Thief »

Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But when reading about the 'ten fetters', I discovered the second one, which is 'vicikitsa': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicikitsa
Translated as 'doubt' or 'indecision' about the 4 noble truths & dependent origination.

But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
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conebeckham
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by conebeckham »

Buddha taught that we should question all his teachings, but you have to examine and come to a conclusion about certain fundamental concerns. Put another way, one has to have examined and come to a conclusion with confidence. Buddhadharma requires you to engage, and does not ask you to accept something because it is a dogmatic axiom. There are certain aspects of Buddhadharma which can be "doubted," or which one can maintain a certain "Skeptical" feeling about, IMO, but the Four Noble Truths and Dependant Origination are non-negotiable.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But when reading about the 'ten fetters', I discovered the second one, which is 'vicikitsa': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicikitsa
Translated as 'doubt' or 'indecision' about the 4 noble truths & dependent origination.

But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
Vicikitsa means being ‘wishy-washy’ if you know that expression. It’s like when you look at a restaurant menu and can’t decide what you want.
That’s not the same as being skeptical about the food being served. Maybe one learns about the four noble truths and they think “I don’t know if I agree with that or not. Maybe it’s correct and maybe it isn’t” which is very different than examining the teachings thoroughly and deciding that in your mind they are valid or not.
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Kai lord
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by Kai lord »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
Non dogmatic in the sense that one can freely decide whether to adopt Buddhism way of thinking or not without any fear of repercussions.

Many have read Dharma for leisure and adopted whatever verses or mentalities that inspire them enough to integrate them into their daily lives.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
The Buddha said to test the Dharma teachings as a gold buyer would test gold: burn it, pound it, cut it, and to not just believe on blind faith because you are told that it is authentic. You have to put the teachings into practice to determine if they are valid or not. Once you have established in your mind that they are, then you should practice will full conviction, and not doubt those things which you now know to be true.
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Aemilius
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by Aemilius »

I am not sure to what extent you can be free from "dogma"? We humans are social beings. The word "gold" exists in a society. It exists, because there are some experts who work with "gold", and who know what "gold" is like. You don't know "gold" by yourself, do you? How could you possibly know what is gold? For example, there are necklaces that look like genuine gold, but are in reality copper covered with a very thin layer of leaf gold, or with some gold looking alloy. How could you know it? In practice existence is built on trust, it is built on habitual and automatic conventions. It is not possible to start doubting many things or everything.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Ayu
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by Ayu »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But when reading about the 'ten fetters', I discovered the second one, which is 'vicikitsa': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicikitsa
Translated as 'doubt' or 'indecision' about the 4 noble truths & dependent origination.

But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
I agree, it should be possible to doubt.
But "Buddhism" consists of many very different streams. In best case they do not start to fight dogmatically. 😉
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seeker242
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by seeker242 »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm
But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
No. All it needs to do is accept the fact that people have doubts, which it does. People say it’s non-dogmatic because no one is going to burn you at the stake for having doubts.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
Let’s take the first noble truth for example: all existence is dukkha. Dukkha is often translated as “suffering”. But how we use the term “suffering” these days doesn’t exactly reflect the meaning of “dukkha”. So, if I ask you today, “how are you? Are you suffering?” You’d probably say no. Then you might say, “I doubt that the first noble truth is valid, because most of the time I am happy and not suffering.”
But, dukkha really refers to the constant striving for a completely satisfactory existence. This constant striving becomes obvious to anyone who practices sitting meditation. Even after you are comfortable and focused and have a stilled mind, if dukkha were not true, then you would find no reason to ever stand up again. You would be happy just sitting there and the authorities would find you sitting there a month later, dead, but with a very peaceful expression on your face. But of course, it’s not like that. We always need to stop and do something else. So, there’s no doubt that the first noble truth is valid.
So the point isn’t that you shouldn’t question anything. The point is to remove doubt through practice, rather than to linger forever in doubt simply because you doubt, hypothetically, whether the practice will validate the truths for you or not.

Doubt is like not tasting the pie because you don’t know if it is apple or pumpkin. It’s uncertainty based on ignorance, rather than in knowing. That is not the same as tasting the pie and deciding whether you like it or not, or whether it is fresh or not.
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Ayu
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by Ayu »

Please note, the side topic on Evolution was split to this extra topic: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 49#p633749
Lavender-Thief
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Re: On buddhism and dogma

Post by Lavender-Thief »

Thank you for all the responses! :smile:
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