Is love an illusion?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
White Lotus
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by White Lotus »

It’s sad that there is pain. Thanks to kind people there is hope. We need more trust. Love is ultimately Trust, so is Faith Trust. Hope is Trust. So difficult sometimes. Trust is the greatest? When we trust we are in Nirvana we know we are. Even pain joins in the dance. Thank you Muni for your kindness. Love, Tom X. :hug:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

A mother does not have to love the child according to the law. She just have to be a parent, represent authority before the progeny.
Amy Coney Barrett is a good mother. She who has 7 children loves them all.

Your deities, and Buddhism mean nothing right now. The mind killed love, the teachers helped the minds be free.
A beautiful complete moment! :cheers:
White Lotus
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by White Lotus »

Enjoy the moment. It’s nice to have something we can trust. Even if it is slightly impermanent. Trust is costly. You say the mind has killed love. To me love is trust. Mind is free to dismantle trust or to rebuild it. What you look for you find. Seek happiness and one day you will find it! That’s as sure as the warm sunshine and the fall of cool rain. Inevitable if it’s what you want. Not everyone wants to be happy. That’s ok!

Finding happiness is like the sunshine. It’s always there. Finding freedom of mind is like the blue sky it’s free. Clouds are ok too.

I can’t judge you, but you are free to judge me! Even though I can’t judge you doesn’t mean I won’t try to! But that’s ok!

Try not to worry too much about God and Buddhas, they are wise in their kindness and very generous. Like Brother and Sister. We thankfully don’t have to please anyone. Anyone is already pleased! Be free.

Love, Tom. 🙂
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

It was a sarcastic multiple observation, a personal answer to stress.

On one side things are moving unexpectedly quick for young people. They have been raised in a certain way and now they're confronted with an old way of thinking (Trump's) that business profits only from having people give birth. 'Give birth and we'll make your child a number!'

It is a simplistic view and yes, conservative, based on not much. Once one cannot find a solution with what they have done so far, and they become unhappy with their own mediocrity, they'll avoid facing the present and put all their hopes that in pushing in the same direction as God, that somehow their problems would be solved and their ineffectiveness won't be be that visible and laughable. It is an unconscious move and it stands for looking for approval and acceptance.

All couples after getting married or even before, try to obtain the approval of their parents. It means that they already stroke out on their own.
They know they break away from authority and because they can't stand being seen as thugs, they quickly search for ways to reintegrate themselves as 'good people' and thus they try ingratiating themselves to the parents. In the recognition process (ritual), a minimum of conditions must be met before recognition and eventual blessing is given and taken.

Looks don't matter (you could be as dumb as you want), love doesn't matter. What matters is how the individual responds to authority.
From the response given, trust can be generated or not. It has nothing to do with love. It has to do with tapping resources, sweet talks, gifts, etc.
Freedom is for buying.

You remind the authority what it used to be like when they were younger. Appeal to ... I don't know what you can call this.
And the authority is investing you with never seen before responsibilities and powers to display before others.
That's why we make group photos, we have meetings, lunches, we cultivate acquintances, go respecting the rules, etc.It is all for no reason than the obscene proposal once made it becomes genuine and pure desire of being a good person. It's how a bill passes through Congress.
Not everyone wants to be happy. That’s ok!
No! It's not that there are people who purposefully do not want to be happy. Maybe they want to be happy but don't want to be in the corrupt way, meaning that they don't want to lie themselves and what they do needs to be in accordance with what they feel. Most of the time people don't feel love towards others ("ugh"? ) and out of making the other person feel uncomfortable, they will suddenly become weak and in denial.
Something like this can happen:
"I love you, I love you, I am hurt, don't hurt me because only I love you and you don't love me back, etc, etc."
And they play on that power over another as in "Love and do what you want". That is the authority. You put up with it or you don't.

When I said that deities and Buddhism don't matter, it means that I don't have the necessary experience, I don't have the drive to continue in the same direction and also expressing a wish for others to have a grip on reality to recognize patterns of thinking since decades ago.

Until that something from the past is not put to rest, a mentality change to happen, the karma is not burned.

I hope I answered honorably to your feelings, Tom.

I also bring in support of my plea, my teacher's comment in what regards the fears he experienced in jail. The biggest fear was that of losing compassion towards what presented themselves as the enemy.

:anjali:
Miorita
muni
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

White Lotus wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:02 pm It’s sad that there is pain. Thanks to kind people there is hope. We need more trust. Love is ultimately Trust, so is Faith Trust. Hope is Trust. So difficult sometimes. Trust is the greatest? When we trust we are in Nirvana we know we are. Even pain joins in the dance. Thank you Muni for your kindness. Love, Tom X. :hug:
I think you say, Tom, pain and pleasure are same in the way they are object-experiences by a subject/self. They can be free, I mean without holding. Of course this is theory..
The reason why I write in this tread is because if we lose that essence love/well being, we change into a machine or pc only living in the head like Tsoknyi Rinpoche explains and what is dangerous and not liberating. In the head only is like locked in a complex boat without there being water. Or like a sky without sunshine. Or a bee without nectar. Or a grey moon without sunlight.
When there is lack of well being, (what is own experience) so called head-heart connection is broken. Then there is no possibility to forgive, to have any loving kindness, it is then easier to call everything an illusion in a way of nothingness-nihilism, or everything we lack is actually irrelevant. However it is our consciousness what is disconnected of unconditional well being of nature. Then love is not possible, while judgement is easy.
Thanks Tom, for your reminder.

As a simple mom, I say to Ardha, do not destroy well being with holding onto grudge or negative feelings. Do not let others destroy your inner peace.

pc mom. :hug:
White Lotus
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by White Lotus »

I need to read you’r responses carefully. There is deep understanding in both of them. A dog or cat cannot trust if it is treated badly. Likewise if a person lies to you you will not trust them. The purpose of truth is to build trust. Not a cruel truth, but a kindly truth builds trust.

I have in the past said that pleasure and pain are joined together. That’s ok when there is no suffering. I have just had a difficult week. A week with pain. I was able to observe the pain and see that it was not suffering. That makes things easier and there is no lasting pain to be grasped or rejected.

I guess all I am saying is that suffering is a fabrication. Because it is feared to be real it gains a sort of reality. Actually there is no suffering, only pleasure and pain and fear of this unreal thing we call suffering. Pain is real, suffering is not.

If I say pain is a fabrication I deny basic experience. If I say suffering is real I am giving reality to a concept that is built on the experience of pain.

This thread is about love. My point was that love is trust and is strengthened by trust. Trust in Dharma is effective when that dharma is pure. Trust is betrayed when dharma is untrue. Trust is reinforced when dharma is true. Trust comes from experience, but can be a choice. Though you kill me, I will still trust you: now that’s difficult. Radical trust. Radical love.

Is it an illusion? It is whatever you want it to be.

I’m sorry if I haven’t answered your posts effectively, but my understanding is limited.

Best wishes Tom.

It’s more about experience than logical theory.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

Direct answer to the OP:

The comment made to the verse refers to the intoxicating character of love.
When love is seen as an attachment to the world, and thus attempts are made to disintegrate it (remember that India is a land of experiments!), the practitioner has a renewed impulse to continue practice and therefore step over the attractions of an emotion.
The verse presents the mind as being more difficult to master, therefore a challenge worthy of respect since it is so easy to dismiss love.

Yes, you are right: one cannot love with their mind.
But let's say we pursue the mind because that's what we focuss on and it is the reason why we went beyond love!

The question is what is out there beyond love?
Or better yet, what is the next level if I accumulate enough love, in fact so much that I burst of love?
What would it happen?

We would have so much love that it would enter the deities' realm.
Let's thus place a deity in charge of love! The deity then would be pure. The deity would speak, of love of course. The deity would fill my head with speech about love.
So this is the love of a deity. It exists, while I don't.

I cannot identify with the deity because I pursue the mind.
And so there is that speech between 2 minds that the commentator gave.
But this is at a different level, the mind level and above the heart.

Remember those old calendars with spirited quotes, something like "Never let the mind do the thinking of the heart"?
Perhaps that's what you remember. The mind is unable to love. Even if love is lower than the mind, it still is a beautiful find.
It creates happiness. The mere thought of love relaxes and brings on nicer brain waves.
White Lotus
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by White Lotus »

What do you think of happiness. Is that a feeling to be rejected? Great thinkers have said that Mind is capable of love. I too think feelings of love are unhelpful unless there is no one to feel them. But that’s only a position and positions are impermanent. Love at it’s purest is not an attachment it is Trust. It need not be a feeling, but is grounding.

All this talk of love! Best to use the expression “Loving Kindness” where there is experience of a self that too can be sticky. No self: no problem. All this is only taking positions. If there is no self there is also a position, but no one taking it.

All rambling words, just let go of words except the ones that liberate. Such as nirvana is right here right now. Let go of self suffering. It is a delusion.

Please remember that I don’t know what I am talking about. Just words, little mosquitos.

I hope I am not being unhelpful.

Don’t worry about love, it’s sometimes a nice distraction, but it can be very helpful if you know that ultimately it is Trust, with or without pleasure.

Thank you Mini for keeping an eye on things.

Metta, tom
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by White Lotus »

Yes Muni, I can’t clarify beyond what you have said: beautiful. Best wishes, Tom.

The heart is a guard that needs guarding.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
stewy
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by stewy »

Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Is love an illusion?
I can't see why anything that appears to me could be an illusion.
Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

stewy wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:52 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Is love an illusion?
I can't see why anything that appears to me could be an illusion.
Appearance means using your eyes, indriya, and the perception associated, vision. The stimuli is interpreted in the brain, yours, and the end product is an interpretation of your mind.
I hope you understand that you make sense of the material world with your mind and therefore appearances are of your mind. I am merely assisting your mind in not identifying with the immediate appearance. If the love you perceive from the appearance is transforming you, interacting with you, then it is a different story.
Last edited by Miorita on Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
stewy
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by stewy »

Miorita wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:56 pm
stewy wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:52 am
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Is love an illusion?
I can't see why anything that appears to me could be an illusion.
Appearance means using your eyes, indriya, and the perception associated, vision. The stimuli is interpreted in the brain, yours, and the end product is an interpretation of your mind.
I hope you understand that you make sense of the material world with your mind and therefore appearances are of your mind. I am merely assisting your mind in not identifying with the immediate appearance. If the love you perceive from the appearance is transforming you, interacting with you, then it is a different story.
I cannot follow youi and I think you have not understood what I said. Read again "I can't see why anything that appears to me could be an illusion.".
Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

Don't worry too much over it!

All appearances are real, very real. Do you want me to slap you through the net to prove my reality to you? :lol: :rolling:

Something is better than nothing. Time out!
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

muni wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:13 am
White Lotus wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:02 pm It’s sad that there is pain. Thanks to kind people there is hope. We need more trust. Love is ultimately Trust, so is Faith Trust. Hope is Trust. So difficult sometimes. Trust is the greatest? When we trust we are in Nirvana we know we are. Even pain joins in the dance. Thank you Muni for your kindness. Love, Tom X. :hug:
I think you say, Tom, pain and pleasure are same in the way they are object-experiences by a subject/self. They can be free, I mean without holding. Of course this is theory..
The reason why I write in this tread is because if we lose that essence love/well being, we change into a machine or pc only living in the head like Tsoknyi Rinpoche explains and what is dangerous and not liberating. In the head only is like locked in a complex boat without there being water. Or like a sky without sunshine. Or a bee without nectar. Or a grey moon without sunlight.
When there is lack of well being, (what is own experience) so called head-heart connection is broken. Then there is no possibility to forgive, to have any loving kindness, it is then easier to call everything an illusion in a way of nothingness-nihilism, or everything we lack is actually irrelevant. However it is our consciousness what is disconnected of unconditional well being of nature. Then love is not possible, while judgement is easy.
Thanks Tom, for your reminder.

As a simple mom, I say to Ardha, do not destroy well being with holding onto grudge or negative feelings. Do not let others destroy your inner peace.

pc mom. :hug:
Sorry but my mother did a lot of harm that cannot be forgiven.

It's also hard to love when you don't even know what it is or what it even feels like.
muni
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

Sorry but my mother did a lot of harm that cannot be forgiven.

It's also hard to love when you don't even know what it is or what it even feels like.
Then do not forgive. Since trying to do what you cannot will only increase suffering, frustrations. Let it be.

For sure, it is hard to love when we do not know what it is. You could replace your thoughts about your mom who harmed/harm so much, for other thoughts. Since the more painful thoughts are repeated, the more there is suffering. These thoughts are resulting in more unpleasant feelings. Just being able of replacing thoughts for other (something positive, whatever), is actually a way of love. :namaste:

You could as well sing mantra, to protect your mind from more pain.

If you like, Ardha, then here;
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:56 pm
master of puppets wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
The doesn't really answer the question.

In response to the original as to whats the difference, I don't know. I don't even know what they meant by illusion I asked and never heard back from them.
I’ve seen some of these conversations with you, Ardha. It seems to me this is the crucial point.

You come with many complaints about illusion but as you say yourself, you don’t even know the meaning of the word. You merely assume it means lies… etc…

On the one hand, you say you don’t know what it means. On the other hand, you make all these assumptions about the concept based on your fears about what it might mean.

Seems like a glaring contradiction, doesn’t it?

I think if you admit to yourself that you don’t know what this word means, it might give you less cause for confusion.

I’m sure people have said this to you before, but maybe it hasn’t changed your view on things.

Anyway, be well!
Last edited by silentobserver on Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Ardha wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:56 pm It's also hard to love when you don't even know what it is or what it even feels like.
For me, love is when someone does something and I feel happy. That’s when I feel loved. :)

Likewise, love for someone else is just wanting to make them happy. Wanting them to be happy…
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andrefelipep
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by andrefelipep »

Love is not an illusion.

Love is part of sentient beings and none of this can be ignored, not even under urgent conditions.

Love is a way of understanding life and it is through love that we practice our devotion.

The true nature of life is compassion.

Through compassion we can recognize the same nature in the lives of others, whether human or animal.

Only meditative practice and prior knowledge can help us move forward.

No specific methodology or belief ignores the real love of sentient beings.

The real strength of life lies in understanding the nature of reality.

If we forget about love, we lose our greater strength.

If we recognize the love within us, we will be alive for a long time.

In fact, Buddhism takes us into various ideologies and about that there is no doubt. What compromises us are the famous "bureaucracies" or historicities that we do not have the power to unveil in this solemn life. Buddhism is able to teach us to understand life because every precept in itself symbolizes a natural condition of life. No wonder life requires recognition of the real nature of our journey. Words pollute our inner power, but still, we must identify the factors and recognize the briefest gaps between theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge.

Love is not an illusion: it is a hope.

Only by faithfully dedicating ourselves to the real structures of Buddhism will we recognize our true nature.

My opinion is vague and somewhat epic, however, we can recognize love as a way of understanding life. By forgetting the elemental precepts, we forget the true nature of life.

Understanding love, we are able to immortalize our notion of what this brief passage through the living nature of things might be.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ayu »

:thanks:
Unless the OP is interested in discussing this topic any further, I'm locking it now after half a year.
Please let me know if you want to add something that has not been said already or if you have a related question that still refers to the topic.
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