The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

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Pårl
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The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Pårl »

[Mod note: this topic has been split from this old topic:]
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 34#p550334
[Please don't bump up topics older than a year, if possible.]



Probably an unhelpful answer and a bit of an obvious statement: irrespective of your belief system, your own basic sense of wrong/right would probably kick in. And that's going to be a personal thing, and not to steal words from the DSM-V, is also on a spectrum.

One thing that intrigues me, is how gender and culture might influence this. Would a female find this more or less worthy of the label "sexual misconduct" than a male? Or vice versa? Would progressive cultures where Mahayana Buddhism is popular have a different view (e.g. people from California, Nordic people...?

What happens if you say twice a week you are a secular buddhist on bodily function grounds?
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Sādhaka »

Not sure about “secular Buddhism”; however Tibetan Medicine mentions the following possibly applicable to your question: Twice an week in the spring, twice an month in the summer, twice an week in autumn, and that everyday in the winter is okay.

The above seems to be from the perspective of bodily function, and advice for the average layman. Also, sex is assumed here, not masturbation. And, if anyone wants to say that the two are the same, well then they don’t have direct experience of the difference between the energetic exchange that happens with sex vs masturbation; the latter of which your mileage may vary.

This debate has been going on on these forums for years and years, some citing various interpretations of Abhidharma & and monastic codes, etc., with varied opinions & mental gymnastics coming from both sides of the debate.

IMO, as with anything one may do in any given moment, as a Dharma practitioner you may want to ask yourself if what you’re doing is creating karmic traces; as the goal here is to stop creating more of them…. I mean can sense pleasures be enjoyed without creating karmic traces? According to the Dharma, sure. However on the issue of the sexual topic in particular, the Buddhist saying is that it is like licking honey from a razor blade: If you’re not prepared in the correct way, it is risky.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:10 pm And, if anyone wants to say that the two are the same, well then they don’t have direct experience of the difference between the energetic exchange that happens with sex vs masturbation
The only thing specified in the texts is ejaculation, not the manner of ejaculation.

Energetic exchange is a bunch of new age woo woo invented by Western fantasists who've confused Taoist concepts with Buddhist yoga.

I have translated literally dozens of texts on karmamudra, not one of them mentions anything like "energy exchange."
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Pårl »

So is this analogous to "it's ok to have one beer with a friend" provided it produces positive, happy results for both parties, and provided you do not become intoxicated? Not sure what scientifically "energy exchange" refers to in this case: energy can neither be produced nor destroyd; it merely transforms from one state to another. Newton, I think?
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Soma999 »

Life is not confined in text. Sensitive persons clearly feel what happens during sexual intercourse on an energetic point of view.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

That’s really trusting intuition in a naive way. Especially with something like sex, various attitudes are deeply ingrained due to social conditioning from an early age. Assuming “it must be right because I feel it” is almost juvenile, and does not seem like a wise approach to me.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Sādhaka »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:55 pm Life is not confined in text. Sensitive persons clearly feel what happens during sexual intercourse on an energetic point of view.

Thank you, that’s pretty much exactly what I wanted to say.

Anyone who has direct experience there doesn’t need to read a book to see that what I’d said above is true.

Of course the English word ‘energies’ is often abused by new-age-ish types (although personally I’d never refer to anything as ‘woo woo’). However to reference the texts that Malcolm has translated mentioned in this thread; even if “energies” aren’t mentioned there, I’m sure that there is mention of ‘essences’ or similar.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Ayu »

Maybe it would be a good idea, if you'd find a better fitting word than 'energy'.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:55 pm Sensitive persons clearly feel what happens during sexual intercourse on an energetic point of view.
Sensitive persons feel what happens during sexual intercourse on a sensitive point of view.

Energetic persons feel what happens during sexual intercourse on an energetic point of view.

Everyone else during sex
simply enjoys the point of view.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Pårl »

I seem to recall a comment once made "right tool, right place". I think would thus land the whole ethical question squarely on the shoulders of the would be practioner. I note that there many medical professionals and psychologists that agree that it's an important part of discovering your own sexuality and it's technically harmless. If the activity is something that doesn't sit well with your own sense or morality - Buddhist or otherwise - there's the answer to the question.

For single adults, not wishing to be promiscuous, there seems to be little alternative,

Well that's my 2 cents.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by RyeGuy »

Moderation for everything, I think also applies here. It can be an addiction, just like anything else, especially if paired with pornography which has a lot of harmful implications once exposure to as it surely affects how you see those you are sexually attracted to. I haven't researched this, but I think pornography is harmful for its effect on perceiving actual in person consentual interactions.

Regardless, I'm not sure if complete absolution is entirely healthy either, but I don't have any hard science or other insight to inform this feeling. I wonder though, for monastics, isn't it problematic to cut it off entirely? I had attempted period of absolution when I felt it became too much of an impulse and was at risk for impeding upon general use of time, but then nocturnal emissions starting occurring. If you are cutting off physical self-stimulation, what about when it's released naturally in a cycle, and also tied with dreams of desire? Is it less harmful then? Does this taper off with time if your body acclimates to not being released habitually? Lust is still a main hindrance from me and I try to ponder these ideas for guidance as my Buddhist practice is for laymen and does not address these issues, and I don't think I would want it to as I'm generally wearing of rules for rules sake.

It is cultural, as mentioned above. Take Zen in Japan for instance, where even some monastics still marry and have children.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Yeah, moderation is for sure the key. Just take a look at the scores of "celibate" people that end up abusing others sexually or are just frustrated and pain in the butt to be around.

However, given that we live in the 21st century in the West with an access to the internet I think the first question about masturbation we should ask is concerning pornography. Is pornography acceptable for lay practitioners? Is it even moral, really? As the recent developments incase of Pornhub and others taking down amateur videos show, there is a plenty of abusive material out there on the clear web. Is even professional pornography actually ethical? Is supporting such businesses through ad revenue skillful for an upasaka?

Not to mention the probable influence on dopamin centers in the brain.

Damn, I have tunred into a prude. But I am more concerned with this now as I am wondering if healthy moderate sexual activity is even possible when porn is permitted. Personally I think it is the same case like alcohol. Some can have a few drinks and not lose sense of moderation, others just cannot stop themselves.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Mirror »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:58 am Yeah, moderation is for sure the key. Just take a look at the scores of "celibate" people that end up abusing others sexually or are just frustrated and pain in the butt to be around.

However, given that we live in the 21st century in the West with an access to the internet I think the first question about masturbation we should ask is concerning pornography. Is pornography acceptable for lay practitioners? Is it even moral, really? As the recent developments incase of Pornhub and others taking down amateur videos show, there is a plenty of abusive material out there on the clear web. Is even professional pornography actually ethical? Is supporting such businesses through ad revenue skillful for an upasaka?

Not to mention the probable influence on dopamin centers in the brain.

Damn, I have tunred into a prude. But I am more concerned with this now as I am wondering if healthy moderate sexual activity is even possible when porn is permitted. Personally I think it is the same case like alcohol. Some can have a few drinks and not lose sense of moderation, others just cannot stop themselves.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Pårl »

It's nice to see that "common sense" seems to be the prevailing view. That's my view too. Having a "black or white" attitude about something like this is more likely to lead to extremist or dangerous behaviours. The old adages "the lesser of evils" or "harm limitation" seem to apply here.

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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Inedible »

If you were to explore masturbation and conclude for yourself that the cost outweighs the benefits, it would be natural to stop. For this to happen, you can't start with that conclusion first and try to prove it second. It has to be a genuine exploration. If you just stop, but not for good reason, there will be resistance and it will persist. I'd also suggest that if you see this as necessary that having lots of other ways of handling stress and catching it early would be useful.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by genkaku.linrx »

I don't wish to sound like a goodie two shoe buddhist.

I began masturbation when I was a 15-year-old, but since I was 3 years old, I have had sexual fantasies about the opposite gender. It wasn't taught to me, it just occurred naturally as I grew up. I still remember my parents having sex in my bedroom when I was three years old, they did not lock the door, I walked in, and my mother was screaming at the top of her voice naked on my bed with all their garments on the floor, my floor. My mother told me to use my toy gun to hit my father as hard as I could. I followed her instructions, but I still had no clue what they were doing, and it was only when I began touching myself as an adolescent did I realise that there was a feel-good sensation that my parents were engaged in.

Before I became a Buddhist, I would masturbate heavily but even though it felt good, there was also a sense of wrongdoing that made me feel sorry also. Fast forward by 20-odd years, I still masturbate as a 40-year-old, but it is less about craving or love. It is more of a matter of discharging fluids that the body secrete that are not used for the purpose of copulation. As a Buddhist layperson, I don't have sex, I do not fornicate, but I am mindful that if I do not masturbate, there is an accumulation of bodily fluids in my genitals that has the potential to make me uncomfortable unless I let it all out. It is no different from urinating. If the bladder accumulates too much fluid, it has to go otherwise I feel like bursting in my pants.

I do not speak for all Buddhists, but this is what I personally experience as a single adult male.

As for pornography, here in Singapore where secular laws apply, it is illegal to download pornography but it is legal to stream porn from the privacy of one's bedroom, so I follow the local laws and do not use the download function. I would still stream and watch them probably around once or twice a week. Yeah, that's about all I have to add in the meantime.

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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

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Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:58 am Yeah, moderation is for sure the key. Just take a look at the scores of "celibate" people that end up abusing others sexually or are just frustrated and pain in the butt to be around.

However, given that we live in the 21st century in the West with an access to the internet I think the first question about masturbation we should ask is concerning pornography. Is pornography acceptable for lay practitioners? Is it even moral, really? As the recent developments incase of Pornhub and others taking down amateur videos show, there is a plenty of abusive material out there on the clear web. Is even professional pornography actually ethical? Is supporting such businesses through ad revenue skillful for an upasaka?

Not to mention the probable influence on dopamin centers in the brain.

Damn, I have tunred into a prude. But I am more concerned with this now as I am wondering if healthy moderate sexual activity is even possible when porn is permitted. Personally I think it is the same case like alcohol. Some can have a few drinks and not lose sense of moderation, others just cannot stop themselves.
:good:

I don't think masturbation is bad, but I do think porn is. Even though you can logical tell if something is fake, the brain cannot; that is why people still feel fear while watching a movie. When you stimulate your mind with porn and all those terrible acts, it starts to normalize them, which can impact your relationship and the way you view women and sex.

Our brain has never evolve to deal with that much stimulation. Every time you watch a scene with a different women and stimulate yourself, the brain thinks your actually getting laid and releases tons of pleasure neurochemicals. And since the pleasure is so great, it is very easy to get addicted and lose motivation for other activities - just like with meth or cocaine.

Another thing, I don't believe you can be a true "celibate" without working on your mind. Even if you don't have sex but still fantasize constantly, then, in a sense, you're still having sex because the brain believes so, and that is just destructive because there is no human connection - just pure instinctive lust. So, in my opinion, being celibate wasn't their downfall; it was the fact that couldn't or didn't train their minds. With that out of the way, I don't think I'm anywhere close to master my mind either :rolling:

Here is a little ted talk on porn if anyone is interested; it's very interesting
Last edited by SkyFox on Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Sexual energy either has to be transformed or dispersed in my experience.

If a person is really concerned about masturbation, I suspect the important thing is to aim for a balanced energy, exercise, sleep, different energetic practices could help.

Generally when sexuality crosses into being unhealthy or unethical, it starts with some kind of imbalance and turns into compulsion.

I tend to agree that porn (whatever else is so about it) is often unethical and unhealthy. Kinda personal here, but years before I got serious about Dharma I used to watch porn with my partner (and on my own), we actually sought out ethical porn (yes, it exits believe it or not), thinking it would make it less sad. It didn’t really, though you at least felt ok that you weren’t monetarily supporting abuse.

So, for someone who is not a Dharma practitioner I can see that the act of watching porn might be somewhat neutral, for a practitioner I feel like it is so stimulating that no matter the form, it is probably a fairly bad idea.

Masturbation itself though is, in some sense, about excess energy.

When I was flipping out some during the first opening of the pandemic I started working out at a boxing gym, the most extreme exercise I have ever done. I am a high-libido person generally, even in middle age, what I discovered is that a certain amount of hard exercise really balanced out my draw toward sexual compulsiveness.

So, there are a bunch of ways to approach it, but I think viewing it as an issue of energy management primarily, and conduct secondarily is most sensible.

Moralizing just makes taboos more fun, so that’s not a good approach. It usually just leads to an abstinence-relapse-guilt cycle, which is really and truly a waste of ones time.
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by SkyFox »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:31 pm Moralizing just makes taboos more fun, so that’s not a good approach. It usually just leads to an abstinence-relapse-guilt cycle, which is really and truly a waste of ones time.
Truer words have never been spoken. Why is it that those kinks are always so dangerously fun? :jumping: But then again I also believe it is important to recognize when something is harmful for you. Because, god knows, how many dangerous addictions and habits start with " just once," or " it's not that bad"
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Re: The own basic sense about masturbation as misconduct

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SkyFox wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:52 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:31 pm Moralizing just makes taboos more fun, so that’s not a good approach. It usually just leads to an abstinence-relapse-guilt cycle, which is really and truly a waste of ones time.
Truer words have never been spoken. Why is it that those kinks are always so dangerously fun? :jumping: But then again I also believe it is important to recognize when something is harmful for you. Because, god knows, how many dangerous addictions and habits start with " just once."
For sure, but with things like sex (for people who are not celibate) there very likely will be a “just once” at least, even for celibate monks etc. such training rules are routinely violated.

Human beings are deeply conditioned to have sex, so if someone is going to make the effort to limit it or achieve complete abstinence that is probably pretty hard to reach in the beginning.

In this sense trying to do without sex altogether (of which masturbation is one form) is different than something you can actually avoid altogether- such a casino, a drug, a video game, what have you.

With drugs, etc. a person can more easily avoid external triggers, with masturbation one always inhabits ones body, and can only avoid secondary triggers, porn, TV, etc.

Physiologically we associate sexual pleasure with survival, so someone who truly wants to achieve celibacy has this to contend with, and I imagine it does not get easier for some time, it is a long term project.
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