Breath meditation vs space meditation

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Schuberty
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:09 pm

Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by Schuberty »

I can’t for the life of me meditate using my breath as an object. The breath starts putting on an act, it becomes too shallow, i don’t notice it, or i start huffing and puffing like a bull, and all the naturalness goes out of my sitting practice. I find the practice narrow. I’ve sat for about a year now, a few minutes everyday, and i’ve naturally avoided focusing on my breath.

I’m better able to focus on an image and listen to sound, be aware of my body, the sensation, the environment. A calm and clear mind seems like a far fetched idea to me and i wonder if it’s because I didn’t begin properly, i.e. by working with my breath? Because I’ve read it’s the standard practice for beginners. But i do seem to get small insights now and then while sitting.

So, can i avoid the practice of breath meditation for the rest of my life? Also there’s a constant inquiry while sitting, who’s breathing? Seeing? Feeling? Hearing? Isn’t it Vipassana? Can i do Vipassana without getting a hold on Samatha first?

I’ve been listening to YMR’s teaching on YT. He talks a lot about awareness of awareness, and about being aware of the space in your room first, and then your surrounding, the valley, the world, universes…
Bingo! my kind of practice! I’ve always enjoyed looking at the sky and found certain freedom and expansion while doing so. I’m able to sit for a still longer period of time just being aware of the space around me.

But i heard it’s an advanced practice (Dzogchen)? So can i practice space awareness without having calmed my mind first?

As I said before, a 24 hours “clean clear” mind seems like a myth to me. Because I don’t trust myself in my ability, hence I don’t believe i can transform my self? Is it my own lack of self belief that’s making me come up short in my sitting practice? I suffer from many neurosis, one being that i’m hard on myself and i’ve self destructive habits.

Lot of questions, please help this confused being 🙏
blazer
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:50 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by blazer »

Schuberty wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:39 am I can’t for the life of me meditate using my breath as an object. The breath starts putting on an act, it becomes too shallow, i don’t notice it, or i start huffing and puffing like a bull, and all the naturalness goes out of my sitting practice. I find the practice narrow. I’ve sat for about a year now, a few minutes everyday, and i’ve naturally avoided focusing on my breath.

I’m better able to focus on an image and listen to sound, be aware of my body, the sensation, the environment. A calm and clear mind seems like a far fetched idea to me and i wonder if it’s because I didn’t begin properly, i.e. by working with my breath? Because I’ve read it’s the standard practice for beginners. But i do seem to get small insights now and then while sitting.

So, can i avoid the practice of breath meditation for the rest of my life? Also there’s a constant inquiry while sitting, who’s breathing? Seeing? Feeling? Hearing? Isn’t it Vipassana? Can i do Vipassana without getting a hold on Samatha first?

I’ve been listening to YMR’s teaching on YT. He talks a lot about awareness of awareness, and about being aware of the space in your room first, and then your surrounding, the valley, the world, universes…
Bingo! my kind of practice! I’ve always enjoyed looking at the sky and found certain freedom and expansion while doing so. I’m able to sit for a still longer period of time just being aware of the space around me.

But i heard it’s an advanced practice (Dzogchen)? So can i practice space awareness without having calmed my mind first?

As I said before, a 24 hours “clean clear” mind seems like a myth to me. Because I don’t trust myself in my ability, hence I don’t believe i can transform my self? Is it my own lack of self belief that’s making me come up short in my sitting practice? I suffer from many neurosis, one being that i’m hard on myself and i’ve self destructive habits.

Lot of questions, please help this confused being 🙏
I can answer based on my own experience of Vipassana meditator.
Stop breath meditation if you feel its what you need.
Vipassana is being aware of the body sensations, without any mental labeling. At least in its pure form.
Meditating on space may have its own benefits.
But if you are not an advanced meditator i don't suggest to take that way for many reasons.

To dispel Ignorance you have to bring attention to sensations of the body, training one pointedness concentration ( also using momentary concentration ) and equanimity. Those are solid foundations for advanced attainments. So, if you feel discomfort try this way.

Don't let anyone tell you what to do. Just listen, evaluate equanimously and attentively, then decide and take your way.
Learn to trust and listen to yourself, otherwise you will never attain enlightenment.
Last edited by blazer on Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

DEJA VU!
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Nosta
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:28 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by Nosta »

Hi Schuberty! Try Silent Meditation from Venerable Master Sheng Yen. You are just aware of your body, not the breath. Thats my favourite form of meditation, altought sometimes I use breath meditation, specially when I feel I need more focus.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Same as last time you asked, the breath is a common focus for shamatha but you can use different objects, or no object at all if you are capable.

Again as far as 24 hours of clarity, of course you can do it, but I think for many people it is probably difficult outside of something like a retreat setting. IME it’s better to begin with short periods.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

As long as you remember to return to the breath when distracted, that’s what is important here.

And if you can do that, then combined with mindfulness, you can be meditating all the time.

You might think that if you meditate for 30 minutes every day, that the other 23½ hours of the day you are not meditating. Even if for 99% of those 30 minutes of meditation you are dealing with distractions, you still regard it as 30 minutes of meditation.

Therefore, as long as you constantly remember to return to watching the breath, the other 23½ hours (maybe minus sleep) is also meditation.

Sure, it might be 23½ of meditation with 99% distractions, but the only difference between that and formal sitting meditation time with 1% distractions is the percentage ratio.

Just keep coming back to the breath.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Archie2009
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by Archie2009 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:50 pmJust keep coming back to the breath.
I, Samantabhadra, the primal protector,
the ancestor of all buddhas,
have become a buddha through coming back to the breath 24/7/365.
Thus, I have not experienced any wandering in saṃsāra
and hence am known as the primal protector.
:lol:
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Nosta
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:28 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by Nosta »

Schuberty wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:39 am I can’t for the life of me meditate using my breath as an object. The breath starts putting on an act, it becomes too shallow, i don’t notice it, or i start huffing and puffing like a bull, and all the naturalness goes out of my sitting practice. I find the practice narrow. I’ve sat for about a year now, a few minutes everyday, and i’ve naturally avoided focusing on my breath.

I’m better able to focus on an image and listen to sound, be aware of my body, the sensation, the environment. A calm and clear mind seems like a far fetched idea to me and i wonder if it’s because I didn’t begin properly, i.e. by working with my breath? Because I’ve read it’s the standard practice for beginners. But i do seem to get small insights now and then while sitting.

So, can i avoid the practice of breath meditation for the rest of my life? Also there’s a constant inquiry while sitting, who’s breathing? Seeing? Feeling? Hearing? Isn’t it Vipassana? Can i do Vipassana without getting a hold on Samatha first?

I’ve been listening to YMR’s teaching on YT. He talks a lot about awareness of awareness, and about being aware of the space in your room first, and then your surrounding, the valley, the world, universes…
Bingo! my kind of practice! I’ve always enjoyed looking at the sky and found certain freedom and expansion while doing so. I’m able to sit for a still longer period of time just being aware of the space around me.

But i heard it’s an advanced practice (Dzogchen)? So can i practice space awareness without having calmed my mind first?

As I said before, a 24 hours “clean clear” mind seems like a myth to me. Because I don’t trust myself in my ability, hence I don’t believe i can transform my self? Is it my own lack of self belief that’s making me come up short in my sitting practice? I suffer from many neurosis, one being that i’m hard on myself and i’ve self destructive habits.

Lot of questions, please help this confused being 🙏
Read the first 2 chapters of this amazing book with a complete description of breath meditation:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=40342
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leech_noggin
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:46 am

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by leech_noggin »

Breath is a bunch of things. There is feeling of breath in nose, in throat, in chest, in belly. There is sound of breath. There is thought of breath. Numbers, counting, if you are counting breath.

Pick just one. It's way easier.

I like using the feeling of breath in the tip of my nose.

This is the technique I use, succinctly. It works well. http://fleen.org/concentration
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