What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

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Nalanda
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What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Nalanda »

In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?

The brain dies not exactly “hold” consciousness.
The brain merely converts sensory data (vibrations striking the ear drum, light hitting the retina, etc). into neuro-electric data which can be reconstructed as thoughts and memories by means of consciousness.

In that sense. Not really much different than a smart phone camera capturing and storing data which only becomes a “picture” when viewed as such, meaning that enough pixels are there that we can make out some kind of image.

Consciousness interprets (experiences) the data stored in the brain in a way which is sort of similar to how you or I look at the display of pixels on a smart phone screen and see an image.

Just as you or I do not exist inside the phone, similarly, consciousness itself does not exist within the physical brain.

The Buddha asked his students to determine if they could find the location of consciousness. Was it inside the body? Outside of the body? Was it in the object observed? His students said they could not find any location for consciousness.

According to the texts, what we refer to as “consciousness” is actually the meeting point between awareness and an object of awareness.
We are “conscious” of a dog barking because the barking of a dog “arises” as a phenomenon, and our awareness of that barking arises with it.

Without the barking of the dog, no awareness of barking will arise. Some will assert that according to the teachings then, there is no “thing” that can be called consciousness, unless triggered by some phenomenon.

To get back to your question, a brain is merely the means by which phenomena is gathered by humans and animals. But there are many living things even in our world which intentionally interact with phenomena outside of themselves, but which have no brains or sensory organs. Spermatozoa for example, swim towards an ovum. White blood cells attack bacteria.

This demonstrates that a brain is not required for something which is alive to possess some type of (even rudimentary) awareness. Whether or not pretas have preta-brains or asuras have asura-brains doesn’t really make much difference then.
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Malcolm
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
Consciousness located in the center of the body, no matter what kind of body you have, according to Buddhist texts.
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Aemilius
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:22 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
Consciousness located in the center of the body, no matter what kind of body you have, according to Buddhist texts.
Which text says it? Is it mentioned in a Sutra or an Abdhidharma text?
As far as I remember Dhammapada says in Chapter 3. The Mind: "Residing in the cave of the heart this mind..."

C. G. Jung discusses this. He says that there is a difference in the cultures of the world concerning the dwelling place of the mind, whether it is in the heart/chest or in the brain/head. It has something to do with the industrialization and the consequent development of humankind.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:22 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
Consciousness located in the center of the body, no matter what kind of body you have, according to Buddhist texts.
Which text says it? Is it mentioned in a Sutra or an Abdhidharma text?
Many Vajrayāna texts, the Medicine Tantra, etc.
Nalanda
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Nalanda »

But if the being has no "form" then what body is there? Figurative body?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Malcolm
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:14 pm But if the being has no "form" then what body is there? Figurative body?
It’s “held” by the faculty of life force.
Nalanda
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Nalanda »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:46 am
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:14 pm But if the being has no "form" then what body is there? Figurative body?
It’s “held” by the faculty of life force.
Wow. So much to learn. "Faculty of life force" doesn't make sense for me right now.

I asked this question because in the Abhidharma lecture I'm watching right now, there seems to be some kind of "something" that holds this consciousness and even that sounds cryptic to me right now. But the Khenpo did say it's not a view accepted by all schools.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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Aemilius
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Aemilius »

Nalanda wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:46 am
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:14 pm But if the being has no "form" then what body is there? Figurative body?
It’s “held” by the faculty of life force.
Wow. So much to learn. "Faculty of life force" doesn't make sense for me right now.

I asked this question because in the Abhidharma lecture I'm watching right now, there seems to be some kind of "something" that holds this consciousness and even that sounds cryptic to me right now. But the Khenpo did say it's not a view accepted by all schools.
Why do you need something to "hold" consciousness? Do you fear it would somehow "spread out" like a a mass of water without a "container"? I think your fears are superfluos. There are many people who have experienced out-of-the-body states, and they can tell that you don't suddenly disperse into space. You stay in one point at a time. There is the awareness-bindu in tantric literature, and in sutras we have the "gandharva" (gandhabba in pali) which is an in-between-state being that is going to take rebirth.

Garbhavakrantisutra, the Sutra on entry into the womb 2014, by Robert Kritzer (author/translator)
"Garbhavakrantisutra, (the Sutra on entry into the womb) is a sutra on a description of conception, the weeks of gestation, birth and the sufferings that afflict all beings after birth. Accounts of the rebirth process can be found in several Buddhist sutras, meditation manuals, and doctrinal texts from as early as the first several centuries of the Common Era....Garbhavakrantisutra does not mention the moment of death but otherwise contains probably the most complete and detailed description of rebirth."--Introduction. Translation from the Chinese and Tibetan translations of the Sanskrit work, no longer extant. The book provides considerable information comparing the various extant translations of the sutra"

"Robert Allan Monroe (October 30, 1915 – March 17, 1995) was a radio broadcasting executive who became known for his research into altered consciousness and founding The Monroe Institute. His 1971 book Journeys Out of the Body is credited with popularizing the term 'out-of-body experience'."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:22 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
Consciousness located in the center of the body, no matter what kind of body you have, according to Buddhist texts.
So, are you saying that consciousness is a thing all by itself?
Because you’ve also maintained that consciousness is not a thing by itself, but only arises along with an object of consciousness.

I started reading the sutra, “The Questions of Bhadrapala the Merchant” which also supports the idea that consciousness is a self-existent thing.

How are these two views reconciled?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
ozymandias
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by ozymandias »

The inhabitants of hell are petas and they're being tortured by asuras. Some petas don't live in hell they live amongst us. Asuras are fallen devas who don't live in heaven. But there are sometimes a blur line between asura and peta, some petas that have not enough bad karma are strong enough and resemble asuras. Some asuras are low on karma and are weak and deformed resembling petas. Petas are basically cursed asuras because they have a lot of bad karma. There are no one living on earth who are truly happy. Happiness in our human world is a lie an illusion. It's fake because people are fake. Even in the 1st heaven you don't need to work a single day in your life there. If you're hungry you pluck fruits from trees. Are there rivers of milk, honey and wine in heaven? Who knows. In the 2nd heaven you live like a king and have a harem. You ever wanted a perfect girlfriend? You can have them here. In the 3rd heaven you can fly and are physically stronger than the lower beings. Everything are combined the higher you go. All the powers and bliss are added up. In the 4th heaven you're in a state of constant ecstasy. You're a junkie always high on drugs here. Always happy all the time forever until you fall. In 5th heaven you are a creator. In 6th heaven you have power over the creations of other beings. In 1st jhanaloka you are a shape shifter, that's why you don't have a gender anymore.
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Sādhaka
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Sādhaka »

Who says that pretas, asuras, and devas (aside from formless realm devas) have no form?

They may live in other dimensions, however that would not mean that they don’t have form. It just probably wouldn’t be form in the same exact sense that we understand (or supposedly understand) form in this dimension.
Kai lord
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Re: What holds consciousness? (pretas, devas, asuras)

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:11 am In other realms without any forms or brain to hold consciousness, what holds it for pretas, devas and asuras?

What do Buddhist texts say about this?
Pretty sure Pretas and Asuras still have physical forms with all the five sense organs and eight consciousnesses, thats why they still can feel continuous suffering from all five/six senses. The fact devas are able to slay Asuras in battle with weapons shows that the latter still have physical forms.

Devas are a whole lot more complicated because they dwell in all three realms, those in the desire realm are same as asuras and pretas with all the five sense organs and eight consciousnesses.

Those in the form realm, only have three to two sense organs since they don't need to eat or hunt for food. So naturally their consciousnesses are less than eight. The higher they move up in the form realm, the more subtle is their body.

Those in the formless realm, do not have a physical body even though some claimed that their body made of particles so subtle and spread out throughout the cosmos or realm that they appear to be invisible. Even then, without all their sense organs and corresponding consciousness, they at least have the seventh or eighth consciousness maybe with the sixth as well.
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