The route to nirvana

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Stigg
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The route to nirvana

Post by Stigg »

Hi all, I was contemplating whether to post this in the Academic, Vajrayana, Mahayana section since my interest is a mix of study and practice.

I've been studying Mahayana and Vajrayana for a long while now, and it has started to come up that what we are getting in today's teachings are a very mixed, sometimes incompatible, messy bunch of commentaries from various different masters. It does seem to suggest that noone really knows what is going on, what is the correct route, what are the stages of progress and what is the ultimate destination.

On one hand, we have the Buddha-nature, original mind, sudden/gradual awakenings, view of emptiness in Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen, Ch'an, Pureland schools. We have the sutras vs tantra debates, we also have Dzogchen schools opposing the Shentong view, the Yogacara opposing the Madhyamika view, etc.

On the other hand, we have the Theravada method of the 8 fold path (which by the way is interpreted differently in various Maha/Vajra schools, depending on who is doing the commentary).

Nirvana, itself becomes a muddled pool of views - there is the view of vast clear sky, which is empty and luminous, which is attainable in this very life; we also have the (also muddled) bodhisattva bhumis (some have 10 stages, some 8, some 13, etc). There are the Pureland, Amida (Shin Buddhism) schools which echo the strong flavors of Abrahamic religions, and possibly many more.

My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Ayu »

I decided to move your post to Academic Discussion, because I hope at this place the discussion is bound to stay factual. At any other place your interesting question could lead to unfruitful discussion.
My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
Actually I believe, there is no intellectual answer to this question. It could only be answered by experience.
I doubt, that there are really various concepts of nirvana, because it is supposed to be beyond concepts. Therefore it is likely to be impossible to describe Nirvana with the means of conceptual language.

I see no problem in the idea that different people need different paths to Nirvana. Why not?
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Stigg »

Ayu wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:29 am I decided to move your post to Academic Discussion, because I hope at this place the discussion is bound to stay factual. At any other place your interesting question could lead to unfruitful discussion.
Thank you for moving the thread, Ayu.
Ayu wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:29 am Actually I believe, there is no intellectual answer to this question. It could only be answered by experience.
I doubt, that there are really various concepts of nirvana, because it is supposed to be beyond concepts. Therefore it is likely to be impossible to describe Nirvana with the means of conceptual language.

I see no problem in the idea that different people need different paths to Nirvana. Why not?
For the longest time, I've stuck with this argument with myself - that experience is the best answer. As I progressed and met sincere practitioners of other faiths - God, Allah, Shiva, Atheism, Daniel Ingram followers, even those of Buddhist sects, all exhibit profound faith in their teachings. Many expressed the deep peace and wisdom they get from their religions.

If we follow this route, we might inevitably end up with "All religions are the same". And if that is so, who is to say Nirvana is the best of all?
Last edited by Stigg on Mon May 23, 2022 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Tao »

>how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal?

All them are the real deal.

Difference on views doesnt exclude liberation. Even falseness may lead to liberation (some tantric methods invite to imagine falseness).

That's the idea of upaya, that's why they're upayas and no absolute truth.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Ayu »

IMHO there's no need to say 'Nirvana is best of all'. People in their tradition may say it. No need to create a one-for-all-doctrine.
My personal opinion.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Kai lord »

Stigg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:22 am Hi all, I was contemplating whether to post this in the Academic, Vajrayana, Mahayana section since my interest is a mix of study and practice.

I've been studying Mahayana and Vajrayana for a long while now, and it has started to come up that what we are getting in today's teachings are a very mixed, sometimes incompatible, messy bunch of commentaries from various different masters. It does seem to suggest that noone really knows what is going on, what is the correct route, what are the stages of progress and what is the ultimate destination.

On one hand, we have the Buddha-nature, original mind, sudden/gradual awakenings, view of emptiness in Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen, Ch'an, Pureland schools. We have the sutras vs tantra debates, we also have Dzogchen schools opposing the Shentong view, the Yogacara opposing the Madhyamika view, etc.

On the other hand, we have the Theravada method of the 8 fold path (which by the way is interpreted differently in various Maha/Vajra schools, depending on who is doing the commentary).

Nirvana, itself becomes a muddled pool of views - there is the view of vast clear sky, which is empty and luminous, which is attainable in this very life; we also have the (also muddled) bodhisattva bhumis (some have 10 stages, some 8, some 13, etc). There are the Pureland, Amida (Shin Buddhism) schools which echo the strong flavors of Abrahamic religions, and possibly many more.

My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
The problem that you are facing seem to be overthinking on multiple issues as a result of overreading on the several tenets from different sources, wanting quick answers to your various dilemmas to such extent that even after several attempts reading your above questions, they seem to be confusing and overlapping. So the best solution for you is to forget everything and start over again.

It might be better if you concentrate on one school first like Thervada, familiarise with its abhidhamma doctrines, tenets and their reasoning processes and the way they refuted other schools before moving onto the next one. Continue and repeat process and eventually you will identify the school that you have affinity with and connects with you

The whole process is gradual and might take years. At least you will achieve clarity.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by muni »

I never had an idea like MY Buddhism is the only real and other people are wrong.

Just to even "THINK", others cannot be free! I have no words for that. Seeing other tradition and even other religious fellows without any empathy at all, no any warmth/care for their very suffering!

"He, he, me alone is going to be free." No way, no nirvana but locked in narrowness.

Comparing, often from the idea mine is best, is like patients with different diseases in a waiting room fighting about their treatment as being the only one.

For me I had no other choice than to follow teachings from each Tibetan tradition available, but also interest in Zen/Chan even I got no Zen/Chan guidance.
Also I found a Master who decided to show me from where all the fools come, and he did me look into my own compassion-less mind.
Last edited by muni on Mon May 23, 2022 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Stigg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:22 am
I've been studying Mahayana and Vajrayana for a long while now, and it has started to come up that what we are getting in today's teachings are a very mixed, sometimes incompatible, messy bunch of commentaries from various different masters. It does seem to suggest that noone really knows what is going on, what is the correct route, what are the stages of progress and what is the ultimate destination.

My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
I don’t think they are messy and conflicting at all. You can learn from all the different schools and traditions, and you may find that beneath the surface they are strikingly similar. You can practice some and then practice others. Then you will know which is the best fit for you, and stick with that one.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Astus »

Stigg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:22 amMy question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
There are mainly superficial differences, and a few only a little deeper. The fundamentals are the same all over the schools, like the five aggregates, six sense areas, dependent origination, three root defilements, and the 37 auxiliaries to awakening.

'Mendicants, whoever has missed out on the noble eightfold path has missed out on the noble path to the complete ending of suffering. Whoever has undertaken the noble eightfold path has undertaken the noble path to the complete ending of suffering. '
(SN 45.33, tr Sujato)

'Whether one wants to train on the level of Disciple, or Pratyekabuddha, or Bodhisattva, - one should listen to this perfection of wisdom, take it up, bear it in mind, recite it, study it, spread it among others, and in this very perfection of wisdom should one be trained and exert oneself.'
(PP8K 1.2, tr Conze)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Queequeg »

I'm going to break with the ecumenical drift of the above.

Pick one teacher, one path, and immerse yourself in it. Practice and study that path as deeply as you can, cultivate deep faith. This will give you a solid ground. From that solid ground, you will have a standard of measure with which to consider and weigh the multiplicity of views.

Its natural in the beginning to sample everything, but if you continue to do nothing but sample everything, you will know none of them well. On the other hand, if you deeply penetrate a path, you will find it much easier to understand the various paths and how they compare.

How do you pick a path and a teacher to commit to?

Buddha gave advice on that:

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN95.html
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Matt J »

Stigg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:22 am My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?
There are varieties of schools because there are varieties of people and ignorance. At first, you find a teacher you trust. Then you follow their instructions. At this point, it is an initial faith in the teacher and tradition that pulls you along. Then you begin to verify some things for yourself.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Queequeg »

Queequeg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:20 pm Its natural in the beginning to sample everything, but if you continue to do nothing but sample everything, you will know none of them well. On the other hand, if you deeply penetrate a path, you will find it much easier to understand the various paths and how they compare.
A follow up comment on this.

IME, the variety of teachings have been helpful to refine understanding. Many of the differences between the various traditions which on the surface can appear significant, often devolve to subtle differences of interpretation of fundamental teachings and observations. I think this is what the other posters above were getting at.

To illustrate with a geometry example - two lines that share an origin but with slightly different trajectories may at first appear to be the same line, and then parallel, but given greater context diverge significantly. Even more so when the function is not a straight line but some algorithm readjusting the trajectory over the course. If we add further complexity, we may find the paths to be completely unpredictable, appearing to be headed in opposite directions or converging.

For well learned scholars the diversity of views can be confusing, let alone a beginner.

This is why its best to find a teacher and tradition that on investigation seem worthy of devotion to, especially in the beginning. Once one has their bearings and a general sense of the landscape, it may be beneficial to explore.

Again, for the beginner, the Canki Sutta is an excellent guideline for finding a path and teacher. Keep in mind, Buddhism is fundamentally an oral, person to person tradition. Books and such records can be excellent supports, but the vitality of Buddhism is passed from person to person down through the ages. It is critical for one to make that connection, even just once, for a brief period. All the better if one can approach and be close to an authentic teacher.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Stigg »

Thanks everyone for your replies. Just a follow-up question, what is the road ahead from the point after one has completed practices such as Mahamudra, dzogchen or having had Zen awakenings and having broken through to non-duality and emptiness? What is the practice from that point? Can someone point me to any sutras or teachings that clearly outline the steps ahead, or is it a blind grope from this point on? Thanks so much
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Archie2009 »

Stigg wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:19 am Thanks everyone for your replies. Just a follow-up question, what is the road ahead from the point after one has completed practices such as Mahamudra, dzogchen or having had Zen awakenings and having broken through to non-duality and emptiness? What is the practice from that point? Can someone point me to any sutras or teachings that clearly outline the steps ahead, or is it a blind grope from this point on? Thanks so much
If you've genuinely gone beyond mind with Kadag Trekchö (Dzogchen) you've taken the off ramp out of samsara. Your practice is then simply to maintain this knowledge of your own state (rigpa) for the rest of your life.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Stigg »

Archie2009 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:35 pm
Stigg wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:19 am Thanks everyone for your replies. Just a follow-up question, what is the road ahead from the point after one has completed practices such as Mahamudra, dzogchen or having had Zen awakenings and having broken through to non-duality and emptiness? What is the practice from that point? Can someone point me to any sutras or teachings that clearly outline the steps ahead, or is it a blind grope from this point on? Thanks so much
If you've genuinely gone beyond mind with Kadag Trekchö (Dzogchen) you've taken the off ramp out of samsara. Your practice is then simply to maintain this knowledge of your own state (rigpa) for the rest of your life.
How does this map to the dasabhumi stages? Is the "gone beyond the mind" stage Buddhahood or still Bodhisattvahood? Will one continue to cycle in samsara?
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Tao »

Stigg wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:01 am
Archie2009 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:35 pm
Stigg wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:19 am Thanks everyone for your replies. Just a follow-up question, what is the road ahead from the point after one has completed practices such as Mahamudra, dzogchen or having had Zen awakenings and having broken through to non-duality and emptiness? What is the practice from that point? Can someone point me to any sutras or teachings that clearly outline the steps ahead, or is it a blind grope from this point on? Thanks so much
If you've genuinely gone beyond mind with Kadag Trekchö (Dzogchen) you've taken the off ramp out of samsara. Your practice is then simply to maintain this knowledge of your own state (rigpa) for the rest of your life.
How does this map to the dasabhumi stages? Is the "gone beyond the mind" stage Buddhahood or still Bodhisattvahood? Will one continue to cycle in samsara?
Not sure in Dzogchen but in Mahamudra, even among the greatest masters they differ on the mapping of Bhumis and the four yogas (Mahamudra path).

But for me "gone beyond the mind" which is not a Mahamudra expression, can fit realizing the essence and amptiness of mind which is the end and completion of the first yoga (one-pointedness), which could be the first bhumi but not all masters say the same... Anyway quite far from Budhahood.

Irreversible or seventh/eigth bhumi is stated in Mahamudra to be the end of the third yoga. And Budhahood or tenth bhumi the end of the fourth. That is clear and all masters do coincide.

Samsara is mostly dead on the eight bhumi and you will reborn (or not) according to your bodhisattva vow.

I use basically the texts of Dakpo Tashi and Tsele Natsok which I found to be great.
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Archie2009 »

Stigg wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:01 am
Archie2009 wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:35 pm
Stigg wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:19 am Thanks everyone for your replies. Just a follow-up question, what is the road ahead from the point after one has completed practices such as Mahamudra, dzogchen or having had Zen awakenings and having broken through to non-duality and emptiness? What is the practice from that point? Can someone point me to any sutras or teachings that clearly outline the steps ahead, or is it a blind grope from this point on? Thanks so much
If you've genuinely gone beyond mind with Kadag Trekchö (Dzogchen) you've taken the off ramp out of samsara. Your practice is then simply to maintain this knowledge of your own state (rigpa) for the rest of your life.
How does this map to the dasabhumi stages? Is the "gone beyond the mind" stage Buddhahood or still Bodhisattvahood? Will one continue to cycle in samsara?
To quote Malcolm from memory, Dzogchen is ekabhumi. You're either on it or not. No to the last question. For most Dzogchen practitioners this happens at the point of death or in the bardos.

As for the second question what is meant by gone beyond mind in this context, read Longchenpa's Chöying Dzö and it's autocommentary. (Which one cannot read without empowerment and lung, by the way.)
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Nalanda »

Here I am struggling to conceptualize Mahayana's paths/grounds/paramitas, Svatantrika-Prasangika distinction, and you guys are saying there's a different system with Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen? :shock:
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Täpa »

Hello, Maybe i read something which is of benefit in understanding to which path suits best.
In the book bonpo dzogchen teachings at page 41 Rinpoche explains something about three different kinds of buddhahood. The first two he discusses is becoming an Arahat thru the hinayana and the second attaining the gyulu thru tantra. He explains something like that both arahat and gyulu is attained because of causes and because it is something created from causes it is also impermanent. But both lead to rebirth in Akanishta from where the practice can be further developped. The third is the jalus, which is attained by the practice op dzogchen. This practice leads to complete permanent buddhahood.
What i conclude from this is that whatever path you follow, eventually you will end up in Akanistha and from there you will reach perfect buddhahood.
So i think the practice which suits the best to you is the best path. In other words the path to which you have the oppurtunity and capability to practice.

hope this helps
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Re: The route to nirvana

Post by Tao »

Nalanda wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 pm Here I am struggling to conceptualize Mahayana's paths/grounds/paramitas, Svatantrika-Prasangika distinction, and you guys are saying there's a different system with Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen? :shock:
Yes, for example in Mahamudra it's conceptualized as four yogas... and not ten bhumis. Sometimes they are splitted in 12 stages. And the 12 are very detailed in texts like Lamp of Mahamudra or Moonbeams.
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