Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Kai lord wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:44 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:31 pm in Tibet there were serious problems during the fifth Dalai Lama with the Jonang and Karma Kagyu. In Japan different schools have had sectarian periods, etc. Its all part of samsara.
Fifth Dalai Lama was a high level bodhisattva (Some even ranked him as the best Dalai Lama) and he knew what he was doing, hence till today most regarded his actions as mere play of samsara and does not dwell on them. :namaste:
Beside all that, I think looking at Tiantai or Tendai could be interesting since Zhiyi's goal was to unify all the incoming teachings to China.
Errrr, you do know about the history between Nichiren and Tendai, don't you? Nevertheless its not a good non sectarianism example to use.
I am not saying anything against the fifth Dalai Lama's attainments. Due to political reasons the Jonang were labeled as heretics. Their books were banned, monastics were forced to convert to Gelug monasteries as well. This also happened to the Karma Kagyu I believe, although my knowledge is very limited to this so others would know much more than me. The Jonang continued to be labeled as heretics until recently due to the mixture of politics and sectarian issues. The stupa holding Taranathas ashes was also destroyed by the Gelug, showing disrespect for this great teacher. Still not a topic I would be knowledgeable to debate on, but I was trying to provide an example of sectarianism in Vajrayana as well since the original post said it seemed to be lacking. I did not mean it to be any harm to the fifth Dalai Lama since the teachings and stories I have heard about him were great, but this part of history did happen.

I know very little about Tendai as well, but my main argument was that Zhiyi was trying to take the many teachings coming into China at the time and make sense of them all. The Ekayana teachings strongly focused on in Tiantai seem to go against strong sectarianism so I was pointing at this. Like all schools I am sure they have had their problems as well.
Kai lord
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Kai lord »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:05 am
Kai lord wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:44 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:31 pm in Tibet there were serious problems during the fifth Dalai Lama with the Jonang and Karma Kagyu. In Japan different schools have had sectarian periods, etc. Its all part of samsara.
Fifth Dalai Lama was a high level bodhisattva (Some even ranked him as the best Dalai Lama) and he knew what he was doing, hence till today most regarded his actions as mere play of samsara and does not dwell on them. :namaste:
Beside all that, I think looking at Tiantai or Tendai could be interesting since Zhiyi's goal was to unify all the incoming teachings to China.
Errrr, you do know about the history between Nichiren and Tendai, don't you? Nevertheless its not a good non sectarianism example to use.
I am not saying anything against the fifth Dalai Lama's attainments. Due to political reasons the Jonang were labeled as heretics. Their books were banned, monastics were forced to convert to Gelug monasteries as well. This also happened to the Karma Kagyu I believe, although my knowledge is very limited to this so others would know much more than me. The Jonang continued to be labeled as heretics until recently due to the mixture of politics and sectarian issues. The stupa holding Taranathas ashes was also destroyed by the Gelug, showing disrespect for this great teacher. Still not a topic I would be knowledgeable to debate on, but I was trying to provide an example of sectarianism in Vajrayana as well since the original post said it seemed to be lacking. I did not mean it to be any harm to the fifth Dalai Lama since the teachings and stories I have heard about him were great, but this part of history did happen.
Yeah it did happen but Jonang wasn't destroyed, their teaching was kept well alive and thats why they are experiencing a renaissance right now as in accordance with the wishes of the very same Dalai lama (14th), Back then the Fifth was actually the one holding back other more Gelug extremists from utterly destroy Jonang and was the main reason why Jonang teaching remained intact.

At any rate if we want to discuss about Fifth's mistakes, Jonang wasn't the hill to fight on. Personally, I felt the Drakpa Gyaltsen issue was a far more serious one and affected thousands if not millions of disciples even till today after 300 years.

Bet you know how many Buddhists respected the 14th Dalai lama and you can rest assure many of them felt that the Fifth is even greater than the 14th. Both have gurus from other sects and for the Fifth, he was even a Terton and had visions of Bodhisattvas.

I know very little about Tendai as well, but my main argument was that Zhiyi was trying to take the many teachings coming into China at the time and make sense of them all. The Ekayana teachings strongly focused on in Tiantai seem to go against strong sectarianism so I was pointing at this. Like all schools I am sure they have had their problems as well.
You can go read about Nichiren and how it broke away from Tendai. It is well known that the amount of sectarianism one will experience in Nichiren is no less than Theravadin and extrreme Gelugpa examples already discussed in this thread.
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Nicholas2727
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Kai lord wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:12 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:05 am
Kai lord wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:44 pm

Fifth Dalai Lama was a high level bodhisattva (Some even ranked him as the best Dalai Lama) and he knew what he was doing, hence till today most regarded his actions as mere play of samsara and does not dwell on them. :namaste:



Errrr, you do know about the history between Nichiren and Tendai, don't you? Nevertheless its not a good non sectarianism example to use.
I am not saying anything against the fifth Dalai Lama's attainments. Due to political reasons the Jonang were labeled as heretics. Their books were banned, monastics were forced to convert to Gelug monasteries as well. This also happened to the Karma Kagyu I believe, although my knowledge is very limited to this so others would know much more than me. The Jonang continued to be labeled as heretics until recently due to the mixture of politics and sectarian issues. The stupa holding Taranathas ashes was also destroyed by the Gelug, showing disrespect for this great teacher. Still not a topic I would be knowledgeable to debate on, but I was trying to provide an example of sectarianism in Vajrayana as well since the original post said it seemed to be lacking. I did not mean it to be any harm to the fifth Dalai Lama since the teachings and stories I have heard about him were great, but this part of history did happen.
Yeah it did happen but Jonang wasn't destroyed, their teaching was kept well alive and thats why they are experiencing a renaissance right now as in accordance with the wishes of the very same Dalai lama (14th), Back then the Fifth was actually the one holding back other more Gelug extremists from utterly destroy Jonang and was the main reason why Jonang teaching remained intact.

At any rate if we want to discuss about Fifth's mistakes, Jonang wasn't the hill to fight on. Personally, I felt the Drakpa Gyaltsen issue was a far more serious one and affected thousands if not millions of disciples even till today after 300 years.

Bet you know how many Buddhists respected the 14th Dalai lama and you can rest assure many of them felt that the Fifth is even greater than the 14th. Both have gurus from other sects and for the Fifth, he was even a Terton and had visions of Bodhisattvas.

I know very little about Tendai as well, but my main argument was that Zhiyi was trying to take the many teachings coming into China at the time and make sense of them all. The Ekayana teachings strongly focused on in Tiantai seem to go against strong sectarianism so I was pointing at this. Like all schools I am sure they have had their problems as well.
You can go read about Nichiren and how it broke away from Tendai. It is well known that the amount of sectarianism one will experience in Nichiren is no less than Theravadin and extrreme Gelugpa examples already discussed in this thread.
Thank you for the clarification and yes I do not mean to say anything bad about the fifth Dalai Lama as I know much of his contributions were clearly important and signs of a high level Bodhisattva. The 14th Dalai Lama is doing some great things for Jonang as far as I can tell. He truly teaches as a non-sectarian teacher and its great to see.

Ill have to read up more on Nichiren as thats the Buddhist school I know almost nothing about. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Zhen Li »

DNS wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 3:22 pm
Anders wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:48 pm Within fgs you have pureland strains, Chan strains, tiantai strains etc.

Regardless I think it is representative of the Chinese approach to draw from all schools as all playing in the same sandbox. It is in many ways more accurate to think of Chinese Buddhist practice as pan-mahayana, with regards to doctrinal outlook and community, with a more specialised lense regarding one's own personal practice.
I have found FGS / Chan Buddhism to be mostly non-sectarian and pan-mahayana too. They might even be pan-buddhist. Their monastic code is not really much different than Theravada, with celibate monks, nuns, one or two meals a day before noon.

The (FGS) HSI-LAI temple in Los Angeles is where Ayya Khema received her full ordination and they allowed her to ordain in her chosen tradition, Theravada.
Eating after noon is fully institutionalized in FGS. I don’t think there’s any abstention period, even for retreats.

Essentially, people can receive the Dharmaguptika vinaya from FGS and then leave and practice elsewhere. There are also lots of nuns from Tibetan traditions who do this too, but it doesn’t mean they teach those schools —while there you will still practice exoteric Mahayana.
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