Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

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Kai lord
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Kai lord »

Can aliens' biological and genetic makeup consist of material lighter, less dense than water/carbon like plasma? Or even better do away with matter... comprises of pure energy or photons with no rest mass?

I remember what Lovecraft said, the cosmos could be stranger, more weird and dark than what we all presume. Our human centric views might simply fall apart.
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PeterC
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by PeterC »

Caoimhghín wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:24 pm I'm looking at it this way:

Physical objects cannot actually travel at light-speed, at faster-than-light-speed, or even substantially near light-speed. Objects become energy. Matter dematerializes.

If they can re-materialize a spaceship, they might as well just re-materialize their bodies, which they would have to do anyways.
We’re into the realm of speculative theoretical physics here, but: the basic idea that to cross a very long distance you would find a way to accelerate to beyond the speed of light is not the most plausible. A more plausible way would be to construct a stable wormhole large enough to go through - ie to distort spacetime rather than to travel through it faster.

But just because we can speculate that a means might exist to do this - eg using exotic matter to stabilize and expand a wormhole occurring naturally on the event horizon of a supermassive object - the far, far more likely outcome is that this simply isn’t possible. That our simplistic view of physics is actually correct and that there’s no means of crossing interstellar space, and we are therefore de facto alone and always will be.
Malcolm
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:28 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:24 pm I'm looking at it this way:

Physical objects cannot actually travel at light-speed, at faster-than-light-speed, or even substantially near light-speed. Objects become energy. Matter dematerializes.

If they can re-materialize a spaceship, they might as well just re-materialize their bodies, which they would have to do anyways.
We’re into the realm of speculative theoretical physics here, but: the basic idea that to cross a very long distance you would find a way to accelerate to beyond the speed of light is not the most plausible. A more plausible way would be to construct a stable wormhole large enough to go through - ie to distort spacetime rather than to travel through it faster.

But just because we can speculate that a means might exist to do this - eg using exotic matter to stabilize and expand a wormhole occurring naturally on the event horizon of a supermassive object - the far, far more likely outcome is that this simply isn’t possible. That our simplistic view of physics is actually correct and that there’s no means of crossing interstellar space, and we are therefore de facto alone and always will be.
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PeterC
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:22 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:28 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:24 pm I'm looking at it this way:

Physical objects cannot actually travel at light-speed, at faster-than-light-speed, or even substantially near light-speed. Objects become energy. Matter dematerializes.

If they can re-materialize a spaceship, they might as well just re-materialize their bodies, which they would have to do anyways.
We’re into the realm of speculative theoretical physics here, but: the basic idea that to cross a very long distance you would find a way to accelerate to beyond the speed of light is not the most plausible. A more plausible way would be to construct a stable wormhole large enough to go through - ie to distort spacetime rather than to travel through it faster.

But just because we can speculate that a means might exist to do this - eg using exotic matter to stabilize and expand a wormhole occurring naturally on the event horizon of a supermassive object - the far, far more likely outcome is that this simply isn’t possible. That our simplistic view of physics is actually correct and that there’s no means of crossing interstellar space, and we are therefore de facto alone and always will be.
There is always rebirth...
Karma: works better than faster-than-light travel
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Aemilius
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Aemilius »

Image

Semjase:

"33. To travel through real outer space, one needs a drive that surpasses the speed of light many times over.

34. This propulsion can only become activated, however, when the speed of light has already been reached.

35. As a result, another drive is needed to regulate the normal speed up to that of light.

36. This means then that a beamship needs two propulsion systems: first, a normal drive which permits acceleration up to and below the speed of light and, second, a hyperdrive as you call it.

37. A drive, therefore, which generates a velocity a million and billion times that of light; the hyperspeed, which enables us to enter hyperspace.

38. A space in which every mass expands in proportion to the increase in speed.

39. Consequently, time and space collapse and they become null-time and null-space.

40. That is to say:

41. Space and time simply cease to exist.

42. And exactly by this manner is created the fact that distances of countless light-years can be traversed in a fraction of a second without causing a shift in time.

44. For example, when we leave our Pleiades and require about seven hours to get to Earth, then seven hours pass on our own planet and on Earth, as well.

45. It takes us this long because we must first fly with the normal drive beyond the reach of the planets; only then, faraway in space, can we convert to hyperspeed.

46. A long way from your solar system, we exit hyperspace and convert to normal propulsion as we continue to fly here. "

from http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_ ... ace_Travel
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PeterC
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by PeterC »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:53 amfirst, a normal drive which permits acceleration up to and below the speed of light…
I’m sure we’ll have that any day now. :thinking:
Kai lord
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:53 am Image

Semjase:

"33. To travel through real outer space, one needs a drive that surpasses the speed of light many times over.


Why Going Faster-Than-Light Leads to Time Paradoxes
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Aemilius »

I have watched The Action Lab, Veritasium, Vsauce (& other) videos about problems in physics. There are plenty of them and they are really good.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheActionLab
https://www.youtube.com/c/veritasium
https://www.youtube.com/c/vsauce1
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:32 am The UN secretary General does not have the chakravartin's seven treasures like wish fulfilling gem, so :oops:
How do you know? He is keeping it in a secure bankvault obviously. Anyway, you cannot give people something that they cannot receive. This means, for example, that you cannot purify the oceans by magical means from the garbage that human beings have put there, without causing a harmful result (for humanity). The real solution is that human beings do not throw plastic or other kind of waste into the rivers and seas. And that they themselves take out all the plastic and waste that has been thrown there. The real cintamani is a pure altruistic will and motivation, which António Guterres clearly expresses it the short video clip.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:47 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:32 am The UN secretary General does not have the chakravartin's seven treasures like wish fulfilling gem, so :oops:
How do you know? He is keeping it in a secure bankvault obviously. Anyway, you cannot give people something that they cannot receive. This means, for example, that you cannot purify the oceans by magical means from the garbage that human beings have put there, without causing a harmful result (for humanity). The real solution is that human beings do not throw plastic or other kind of waste into the rivers and seas. And that they themselves take out all the plastic and waste that has been thrown there. The real cintamani is a pure altruistic will and motivation, which António Guterres clearly expresses it the short video clip.
One of the seven treasures is an all conquering general who doesn't lose a single battle. Pretty sure UN secretary general does not have that general with him as he can't even command NATO.

According to scriptures and legends, the real cintamani is located at the head of a serpent /naga king who dwells at the bottom of the ocean. Still waiting for real chakravartin to slice that jewel off from its head.
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Aemilius
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

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In Buddhism Cintamani is held by the Bodhisattvas Avalokiteshvara and Ksitigarbha.
There is a special form and dharani of Cintamani Avalokiteshvara.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Sādhaka
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Sādhaka »

Then is the Cintamani held by Avalokitesvara or the Naga or Serpent King? (Edit: Oh perhaps there’s a Cintamani in ‘Hinduism’ that says the latter, while Buddhadharma says the former…)

Anyway I really doubt that António Guterres is a or the current Cakravartin.

Also, doesn’t a Cakravartin appear only during the Satya Yuga? (and if so, then what is the scriptural source for this?)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Tue May 24, 2022 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kai lord
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:07 pm Then is the Cintamani held by Avalokitesvara or the Naga or Serpent King? (Edit: Oh perhaps there’s a Cintamani in ‘Hinduism’ that says the latter, while Buddhadharma says the former…)
I see no contradiction in having more than one cintamani existing in legends as its actual numbers is never specific.
Anyway I really doubt that António Guterres is a or the current Cakravartin.

Also, doesn’t a Cakravartin appear only during the Satya Yuga? (and if so, then what is the scriptural source for this?)
Yes according to Abhidharmakośa by Vasubandhu and based on other Indian myths from Vedas and Jain. Amusingly If we go by literal definition of Chakravartin as stated in the scriptures, there will be zero in recorded human history so far. Meaning to say, its humanly impossible for such type of saintlike emperors to exist. It acts more like an inspiration for rulers to look up to.

But if we go by historical definition of Chakravartin and uses inferences, we can find at least a few iron wheeled chakravartins like the famous Asoka who is named and held as a standard for Chakravartin by most Buddhists and a few others (which we can discuss more if more interest is shown).

Anyway since this is the lounge area, no discussions are serious, we are all just having fun. :rolling:
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Aemilius
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Aemilius »

The Abhidharma-kosha identifies four classes of cakravartin; each has a wheel forged from a different element (gold, silver, copper, or iron), which corresponds to their power and the size of their domain, i.e. four, three, two or one continent.

"Chakravartin is a bahuvrīhi compound word, figuratively meaning "whose wheels are moving", in the sense of "whose chariot is rolling everywhere without obstruction". It can also be analysed as an instrumental bahuvrīhi: "through whom the wheel is moving". The equivalent Tibetan term (T. ’khor lo sgyur ba’i rgyal po) translates "monarch who controls by means of a wheel".", says Encyclopedia of Buddhism

In some texts the Wheel seems very much like a material object. And it seems to posses military power and strength. It is said that the armies follow the wheel when they conquer the continents of this world.
In the writings of Nichiren Shonin he refers to going inside a copper wheel (!?), which would be possible for a follower of the Lotus sutra.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Chakravartin, Indian myth of a Flying Saucer King

Post by Aemilius »

Buddhist history doesn't match up with modern academic history, but it has nevertheless been real history in traditional buddhism. In modern times there are still yogis and meditators who have developed transcendental vision, and who have seen a very different history of the planet Earth than the established academic one, which is based on ignorance concerning the spiritual realms, rebirth etc. Chakravartin appears in several sutras and commentaries, and as cakkavatti in the suttas. Here is an interesting sutta passage from Cakkavatti sihanada sutta. (This is only a part of it) :

"And, after many hundreds and thousands of years, King Dalhanemi said to a certain man: "My good man, whenever you see that the sacred wheel treasure has slipped from its position (?), report it to me."

"'Yes Sire', the man replied. And after many hundreds and thousands of years the man saw that the sacred wheel treasure had slipped from its position. Seeing this, he reported the fact to the king. Then King Dalhanemi sent for his eldest son, the crown prince, and said: "My son, the sacred wheel treasure has slipped from its position. And I have heard say that when this happens to a wheel turning monarch he has not much longer to live. I have had my fill of human pleasures, now is the time to seek heavenly pleasures. You, my son, take over control of this Ocean Bounded Land I will shave off my hair and beard, don yellow robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness." And, having installed his eldest son in due form as king, King Dalhanemi shaved off his hair and beard, donned yellow robes, and went forth the household life into homelessness. And, seven days after the Royal Sage had gone forth, the sacred Wheel Treasure vanished.

"Then a certain man came to the anointed Khattiya King and said, "Sire, you should know that the sacred Wheel Treasure has disappeared." At this the king was grieved and felt sad. He went to the Royal Sage and told him the news. And the royal sage said to him, "My son, you should not grieve or feel sad at the disappearance of the wheel treasure. The Wheel Treasure is not an heirloom from your fathers. But now, my son, you must turn yourself into an Ariyan wheel turner. And then it may come about that, if you perform the duties of an Ariyan Wheel Turning Monarch, on the fast day of the fifteenth, when you have washed your head and gone up to the Verandah on top of your palace for the fast day, the sacred Wheel Treasure will appear to you, thousand spoked, complete with felloe, hub and all accessories."

Cakkavattisihananda Sutta http://buddhasutra.com/files/cakkavatti ... _sutta.htm
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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