karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:43 am Planting a seed in a field has something to do with the field, in which it is planted. It grows in a field and it produces fruit (or grain etc.) in a field. Without a field it would not produce fruit.
. . . .
Your attitude to giving is harmful and nihilistic. I sincerly suggest that you let go of it, bury it in the ground.
No, my understanding is based on the notion of dana-without-attachment. But if you are suggesting here that I should bury it in the ground, and watch it grow and bear fruit, I guess I have no problem with that!
😁😁😁

Your examples only support what I am saying. Giving money to a dharma center is like planting a seed in a large field where it will spread. Giving to an individual needy person, while worthwhile and meritorious, is like planting a seed in a flower pot. It’s benefits are limited, so the giver’s merit is limited. But why? this is where we disagree.

But let’s go back. When I made this point, that there’s more merit giving to a temple or dharma center, your reply was basically that the needy individual who needs help would likely think otherwise (which suggests that if the needy person needs your help more than the dharma center or temple does, then giving to the needy person accrues the giver more merit).

But if merit depends on what the receiver thinks or needs, this would mean that it’s the attitude (or what is in the mind) of the receiver which determines the merit of the giver. How is that even possible?

I don’t think there is anything in the Buddha’s teachings to back that up.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:43 am Planting a seed in a field has something to do with the field, in which it is planted. It grows in a field and it produces fruit (or grain etc.) in a field. Without a field it would not produce fruit.
In the Theravada tradition, if you donate a vihara no dana has occurred before the monks move in and live there. I am not a theravadin, this is what I have been intimated by a modern expert(well known monk) of this tradition.

Your attitude to giving is harmful and nihilistic. I sincerly suggest that you let go of it, bury it in the ground.

The error in your thinking is also that you consider you to be "here", and that the other is "there", outside of you. You are the 18 dhatus, and 12 ayatanas, all of them. Your personal existence is limetless, it is without limits. You are also "there", in the objects of your perception. If you donate a hospital, the hospital is part of you, it is an element of you.
Thinking that there is some extension of you in a hospital you donate is delusional. Talk about harmful. That is wrong view 101.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Archie2009
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Archie2009 »

Queequeg wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:54 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:43 am Planting a seed in a field has something to do with the field, in which it is planted. It grows in a field and it produces fruit (or grain etc.) in a field. Without a field it would not produce fruit.
In the Theravada tradition, if you donate a vihara no dana has occurred before the monks move in and live there. I am not a theravadin, this is what I have been intimated by a modern expert(well known monk) of this tradition.

Your attitude to giving is harmful and nihilistic. I sincerly suggest that you let go of it, bury it in the ground.

The error in your thinking is also that you consider you to be "here", and that the other is "there", outside of you. You are the 18 dhatus, and 12 ayatanas, all of them. Your personal existence is limetless, it is without limits. You are also "there", in the objects of your perception. If you donate a hospital, the hospital is part of you, it is an element of you.
Thinking that there is some extension of you in a hospital you donate is delusional. Talk about harmful. That is wrong view 101.
You might as well be talking to a wall.
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Dhammanando
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Dhammanando »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:43 am In the Theravada tradition, if you donate a vihara no dana has occurred before the monks move in and live there. I am not a theravadin, this is what I have been intimated by a modern expert(well known monk) of this tradition.
I don't think this is correct. As I understand it, the donor's merit is acquired upon the completion of the sanghakamma of accepting the vihāra. To say that it depends upon monks residing in the vihāra would be pari­bhoga­maya­puñña­diṭṭhi, "the [wrong] view that merit is dependent upon utility". At the Council of Pataliputra such a view was advanced by the Saṃmitīya Pudgalavādins but rejected by the Theravādin debater, Moggalliputtatissa.

https://archive.org/details/pointsofcon ... 0/mode/2up

Having said that, since the Kathāvatthu is a seldom-read text in modern Asia, it's not uncommon to meet Theravādins who have unwittingly embraced views that were rejected at the Council of Pataliputra. And so your informant may perhaps be correct if he's merely relaying something that's popularly believed in his locale.
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Aemilius
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

There are places in suttas/sutras which indicate that the ancient view was that one's merit is affected by the use of the gift, like this passage from the Parinibbana sutta:
"There are two offerings of food which are of equal fruition, of equal outcome, exceeding in grandeur the fruition and result of any other offerings of food. Which two? The one partaken of by the Tathagata before becoming fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment; and the one partaken of by the Tathagata before passing into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains. By his deed the worthy Cunda has accumulated merit which makes for long life, beauty, well being, glory, heavenly rebirth, and sovereignty."'

The merit is great because Buddha attains enlightenment or parinirvana, after these two meals.

And from Mahabuddhavamsa, Chapter 45b - Life Stories of Female Lay Disciples, Visakkha:
"The Venerable Ānanda saw her weeping and asked her the reason. She told him her story. The Venerable Ānanda then consoled her: “Do not worry, I will show you the spot where you may spread your flooring material,” and he pointed to her an uncovered spot at the end of the stairway which was the place for the Sangha to wash their feet. She was told that all the bhikkhus would step over that flooring before the monastery, after washing their feet and that would be a really meritorious thing for her as the donor."

The merit is great because bhikkhus will step on it, after washing their feet.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

There is a lot about establishing beings in the punyakriyavastus and about the perfection of generosity in the Maha Prajñaparamita Shastra, for example:

"The greatness of the merit (puṇya) obtained comes either from the mind (citta), or from the field of merit (puṇyakṣetra) or from the value of the gift given:

It comes first from the mind when, for example, [the latter has] the fourfold evenness of mind (samatācitta) or the meditative stabilization of the recollection of the Buddha (buddhānusṛtisamādhi). Thus, when the [Bodhisattva] gives his body to the tigress (vyāghri),it is the mind that provides the greatness of his merit.

There are two kinds of fields of merit (puṇyakṣetra): 1) the pitiful field of merit (karuṇāpuṇyakṣetra), 2) the venerable field of merit (satkārapuṇyakṣetra). The pitiful field of merit provokes minds of compassion, whereas the venerable field of merit provokes minds of respect: this was the case for the king A chou k’ie (Aśoka), when he gave to the Buddha the gift of earth (pāṃśupradāna).

Finally, [the greatness of the merit] is derived from the object given. Thus the woman whose wine (madya) had disturbed her mind and who heedlessly gave her necklace made of the seven jewels (saptaratnamayakeyūra) to the stūpa of the buddha Kāśyapa, was reborn among the Trayastriṃśa gods by virtue of this merit. Gifts of this kind are called material gifts (dravyadāna)."

in Perfection of Generosity: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25243.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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