Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

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Jakim Boaz
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Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Jakim Boaz »

Hello everybody ,

I am very sorry if my quesiton is silly or outrageous but i am very curious

My question is if the Zener cards test could be used to indicate if oneself is making progress in practice. And to this extend if it could be used as a test if a guru reached a high level of practice.

I am reading a text in lotswawa house , Patrul Rinpoche states that if one reached the first bhumi he can among many other powers ;

—know one hundred aeons in the past and

—one hundred aeons in the future

thank you
"What we say, goes"
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Aryjna
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Aryjna »

Being able to guess cards or to display supernatural powers has nothing to do with meaningful progress in practice.

A relevant quote:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, Empowerment and the Path of Liberation wrote:These days exceedingly many people become exhilarated and filled with conceit when, based on a small degree of practice, they have signs or superknowledges, miraculous abilities or visions, power of speech or benevolent influence over others, disciples, fame, followers and so forth. Through this they bring disaster upon themselves and other people, both in this life and the following ones. There exists no more severe way of mistaking obstacles for accomplishment, yet few people recognize this.
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Jakim Boaz
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Jakim Boaz »

thank you for your answer i appreciate it

if i understand well ,

it means that a very advanced pratictionner, even the one who reached the first bhumi that come with all the powers Patrul Rinpoche enumerates in the text, would not be able to guess the cards?

For exemple HH Dalai Lama or HH Sakya Trizin if asked would not be able to guess the cards even they are very high bodhisatvas and reached high realisation?

is that correct?
"What we say, goes"
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Aryjna
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Aryjna »

Jakim Boaz wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm thank you for your answer i appreciate it

if i understand well ,

it means that a very advanced pratictionner, even the one who reached the first bhumi that come with all the powers Patrul Rinpoche enumerates in the text, would not be able to guess the cards?

For exemple HH Dalai Lama or HH Sakya Trizin if asked would not be able to guess the cards even they are very high bodhisatvas and reached high realisation?

is that correct?
I don't know if they can guess the cards. But, clairvoyance does not prove that one has any realization, so it cannot be used as a test.

Someone may be able to guess cards but have no realization whatsoever.
PeterC
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by PeterC »

Jakim Boaz wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm thank you for your answer i appreciate it

if i understand well ,

it means that a very advanced pratictionner, even the one who reached the first bhumi that come with all the powers Patrul Rinpoche enumerates in the text, would not be able to guess the cards?

For exemple HH Dalai Lama or HH Sakya Trizin if asked would not be able to guess the cards even they are very high bodhisatvas and reached high realisation?

is that correct?
Would the ability to guess these cards benefit living beings? You have to remember that the actions of someone progressing on the bhumis is for this purpose
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Lingpupa
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Lingpupa »

Those teachings about the bhumis are interesting and can be inspiring. But the sutras are full of poetry and hyperbole - don't take everything too literally.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jakim Boaz wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:26 pm My question is if the Zener cards test could be used to indicate if oneself is making progress in practice. And to this extend if it could be used as a test if a guru reached a high level of practice.
If you show someone on the first bhumi the blank side of the zener cards, they will see the mind of the person trying to test with zener cards, and they will see everything that led that person to think about using this test, and they will see where that person is headed, either deeper into samsara or closer to liberation from it. After that, which images are on the hidden side won’t even matter.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Jakim Boaz
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by Jakim Boaz »

thank you very much to everyone for the replies :anjali:
"What we say, goes"
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climb-up
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Re: Zener cards test as a indicator of Vajrayana practice

Post by climb-up »

Jakim Boaz wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm thank you for your answer i appreciate it

if i understand well ,

it means that a very advanced pratictionner, even the one who reached the first bhumi that come with all the powers Patrul Rinpoche enumerates in the text, would not be able to guess the cards?

For exemple HH Dalai Lama or HH Sakya Trizin if asked would not be able to guess the cards even they are very high bodhisatvas and reached high realisation?

is that correct?
At a very high level of realization you could easily know the cards, no problem.
At that level you might or might not demonstrate your ability because you don't want to freak people out and you also don't want them to focus on supernatural powers instead of realization.

It's also possible to gain supernatural powers without any level of realization at all, so it wouldn't prove anything.

I have no idea HHDL or HHST would know the cards or not, but it wouldn't change my feelings much either way.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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