Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

YesheDronmar
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by YesheDronmar »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:37 pm
YesheDronmar wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:56 pm

This is called "guidance of the three kāyas (sku gsum sna khrid). It is not practiced extensively because the complete instructions for it have been lost for centuries. We only have partial, incomplete instructions.
Thank you for this information, Malcolm.

Is the Guidance of the Three Kayas from Dudjom Lingpa?
No, it is an ancient category of preliminaries found in the Sound tantra and its attendant commentary. Unfortunately, one of the key manuals that explains how to actually practice this is missing.
Thank you for these details, Malcolm-la. Very helpful.
YesheDronmar
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by YesheDronmar »

rang.drol wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:56 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:46 am
Nalanda wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:53 am Good question. What did the translator said is the lineage of this transmission/empowerment?
I wasn't taking notes and didn't write down the name of the person who gave Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche this empowerment, but Düdjom Lingpa (1835-1904) was Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche's great great great grandfather (4th generation). Düdjom Lingpa had many children, eight sons and four daughters, ten grandchildren, and ten great grandchildren (B. Alan Wallace in Düdjom Lingpa's Visions of the Great Perfection, Vol. 1: Heart of the Great Perfection, page 16). All of his sons were great practitioners, scholars, etc. It is not clear to me through which of Düdjom Lingpa's twelve children Rinpoche is related to him. But obviously the lineage of the transmission of the empowerment and teachings we received and will receive over the weekend is very short, direct and pure as a result. Throughout his life, Düdjom Lingpa had many visionary encounters with e.g. various manifestations of Padmasambhava. On these occassions he received teachings. His autobiography has been translated as A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master (Rangjung Yeshe Publications). The B. Alan Wallace book I mentioned above contains a short biographical sketch as well.
He received it via Khandroma Kunzang Wangmo, who was the daughter of Patrul Namkha Jikme (a reincarnation of Patrul Rinpoche by the way), who in turn was one of the sons of Dudjom Lingpa.

So indeed the lineage is a very short one and mostly within the Dudjom Lingpa family itself (up to Dakini Kunzang Wangmo), so we are truly fortunate to be connected to this!
Thank you for this very helpful information.

Do you know how Chakung Jigme Wangdruk Rinpoche is related biologically to Dudjom Lingpa, which of his sons and grandchildren he is descended from? I’m guessing that Khandro Kunzang Wangmo is is aunt.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by cjb »

Nalanda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:35 pm When you get a pointing-out instruction, does that mean it's a one-time thing or you can keep getting it from various teachers?
Nalanda,

I usually just lurk here, but I see you asking about pointing-out frequently.

Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.

It's so very simple, but because of this, many overthink it.

I recommend joining one of Lama Lena's practice groups or catching a live stream when she returns from Europe and requesting pointing out instructions rather than waiting indefinitely.

Receive pointing out as many times as you like, there is no change in what is pointed out. Getting this from one teacher doesn't mean you can't receive teachings from others or anything like that.

I hope this advice isn't out of line and that it's helpful to you.

- Cameron
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Malcolm »

cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.
Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Nalanda »

cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Nalanda wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:35 pm When you get a pointing-out instruction, does that mean it's a one-time thing or you can keep getting it from various teachers?
Nalanda,

I usually just lurk here, but I see you asking about pointing-out frequently.

Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.

It's so very simple, but because of this, many overthink it.

I recommend joining one of Lama Lena's practice groups or catching a live stream when she returns from Europe and requesting pointing out instructions rather than waiting indefinitely.

Receive pointing out as many times as you like, there is no change in what is pointed out. Getting this from one teacher doesn't mean you can't receive teachings from others or anything like that.

I hope this advice isn't out of line and that it's helpful to you.

- Cameron
Thanks. Yes on Lama Lena.
And I'm glad I've made you finally join/post -- for the first time.
I'm glad I have this effect on you. :thumbsup:
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.
Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
"Those who think they have found mind are deluded and most likely under the influence of drugs or alcohol."
Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche during this retreat (through his translator and then my almost illegible, hasty notes).

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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by cjb »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.
Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
Hi Malcom,

I appreciate your translation work, thank you very much for your efforts.

I'm not familiar with this term at all.

- Cameron
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Virgo »

cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 pm
I'm not familiar with this term at all.
Specifically, he interpreted you comments as suggestive that you have a viewpoint similar to Advaita Vedanta dressed up in Dzogchen drag.

This is the viewpoint of certain Shaivites, as well as others, that have been at times compared and contrasted with Dzogchenpas.

Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Natan »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:53 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.
Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
"Those who think they have found mind are deluded and most likely under the influence of drugs or alcohol."
Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche during this retreat (through his translator and then my almost illegible, hasty notes).

Image
I can't even find my feet on alcohol.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:56 pm
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 pm
I'm not familiar with this term at all.
Specifically, he interpreted you comments as suggestive that you have a viewpoint similar to Advaita Vedanta dressed up in Dzogchen drag.

This is the viewpoint of certain Shaivites, as well as others, that have been at times compared and contrasted with Dzogchenpas.

Virgo
It's just gaslighting.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Virgo »

Edit: nevermind.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Virgo
Last edited by Virgo on Tue May 17, 2022 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:19 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:56 pm

Specifically, he interpreted you comments as suggestive that you have a viewpoint similar to Advaita Vedanta dressed up in Dzogchen drag.

This is the viewpoint of certain Shaivites, as well as others, that have been at times compared and contrasted with Dzogchenpas.

Virgo
It's just gaslighting.
I don't think so. Dzogchen is an anti-foundationalist system. This is, in essence, the way it differs from Advaita Vedanta. Whether cjb really has such a view or not I cannot say. Perhaps he just phrased his comment in a clumsy way (I know I am often guilty of that). It is something he should investigate himself. If he agrees with the Advaitan view, then he should be an Advaitan. As practitioners, it is important that we understand the differences.

Why do you think it is gaslighting?

Virgo
He never said anything about advaita or resembling advaita.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Malcolm »

cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:40 am
Awareness is timeless and unobstructed. It is never separate from your being and it cannot be created anew, lost, or destroyed and is not something that is cultivated.
Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
Hi Malcom,

I appreciate your translation work, thank you very much for your efforts.

I'm not familiar with this term at all.
Your assertion that "awareness," by which I assume you mean the term "rig pa," is not something to be cultivated is completely mistaken. I am not sure where you learned this, but it is not a correct understanding. Rig pa is just a special kind of knowledge, that's all.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:33 pm
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am

Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
Hi Malcom,

I appreciate your translation work, thank you very much for your efforts.

I'm not familiar with this term at all.
Your assertion that "awareness," by which I assume you mean the term "rig pa," is not something to be cultivated is completely mistaken. I am not sure where you learned this, but it is not a correct understanding. Rig pa is just a special kind of knowledge, that's all.
I think I heard something very similar in a Lama Lena video I watched out of curiosity on YouTube once, but I can't speak for cjb, of course.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:19 pm It's just gaslighting.
Let me ask this: do you think that having an Advaitan view as someone who is trying to practice Dzogchen is advantageous or disadvantageous?

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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:32 pm He never said anything about advaita or resembling advaita.
Oh you don't take his comment as resembling advaita. Ok. Well I will leave arguing of that to people who enjoy discussing these kinds of points.

Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Archie2009 »

Isn't the point people often taking on advaita ideas without realizing it?
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:33 pm
cjb wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:22 am

Spoken like a true crypto-advaitan.
Hi Malcom,

I appreciate your translation work, thank you very much for your efforts.

I'm not familiar with this term at all.
Your assertion that "awareness," by which I assume you mean the term "rig pa," is not something to be cultivated is completely mistaken. I am not sure where you learned this, but it is not a correct understanding. Rig pa is just a special kind of knowledge, that's all.
Thanks Malcolm,

I really wanted to ask the question but didn't want to step on toes. In your opinion, what is the best translation into English for "rig pa"? I have heard several, and I know ChNN would often use the word "knowledge," which makes sense. Is there another way you would translate it also?


As I understand it "rig" means to "see", or to "know," as in knowing one's own condition. Is this correct?

Otherwise, your statement makes sense, since once one has had an experience of rig pa, then through practice we work to return to that again and again, for longer and longer periods of time.

Is this a correct understanding?

Thank you.
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Matt J »

I wonder if this is "Advaitin" also:
Your essence, and the essence of every living creature, is pure, whole, and complete. There’s nothing missing, and that’s why we call it the Great Perfection. YOU are the Great Perfection. Don’t forget that. Dzogchen is talking about you. This Great Perfection is you right now, right here in this moment, not some fully developed you after you do a lot more meditation.

In Dzogchen, we call this enlightened nature rigpa, or pure awareness. Unlike some approaches in which buddhanature is taught in a more theoretical way, and you need to study and meditate for a long time to figure out what it is, Dzogchen is experiential. You get introduced to pure awareness directly, right on the spot.
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:33 pm Your assertion that "awareness," by which I assume you mean the term "rig pa," is not something to be cultivated is completely mistaken. I am not sure where you learned this, but it is not a correct understanding. Rig pa is just a special kind of knowledge, that's all.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Dzogchen Meditation Retreat with Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche and Anam Thubten May 13-15 2022

Post by Matt J »

Or this:
Dzogchen is a system that emphasizes the direct awakening to nature of mind,
or rigpa (W. rig pa). It is not any kind of creed or some particular doctrine that we
can hold onto or define. Rigpa, or awareness, is the most important theme in all of
Dzogchen. Rigpa is described as the unconditioned, the buddha mind, or the high-
est state of awakening. Yet it is not like some kind of supreme, transcendent con-
sciousness that is distant from us. Instead, it can be so simple that an individual
can experience it at any given moment. And when one experiences rigpa, it often
doesn’t come as some kind of grand vision or experience; it can be shockingly sim-
ple... One of the hindrances to awak-
ening to rigpa is our tendency to mystify it, therefore Dzogchen masters often take
a lot of time demystifying rigpa.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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