Dharanis that don’t require initiation

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Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Any great Dharanis Sutra Level that don’t require initiation can anyone recommend any?

:juggling:
4. From each and every dear companion we will part.
We will leave possessions for which we've strived so hard.
The body's guest house the guest, consciousness, will lose.
To renounce this life is what bodhisattvas do.



དཀོན་མཆོག་ཐོགས་མེད་འབྱམས་པ

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Malcolm
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:01 pm Any great Dharanis Sutra Level that don’t require initiation can anyone recommend any?

:juggling:
Medicine Buddha.
Momento mori.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:36 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:01 pm Any great Dharanis Sutra Level that don’t require initiation can anyone recommend any?

:juggling:
Medicine Buddha.
Thanks Acharya

:bow:
4. From each and every dear companion we will part.
We will leave possessions for which we've strived so hard.
The body's guest house the guest, consciousness, will lose.
To renounce this life is what bodhisattvas do.



དཀོན་མཆོག་ཐོགས་མེད་འབྱམས་པ

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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

明安 Myoan wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:24 pm There are several on Rulu's site.
Thanks
4. From each and every dear companion we will part.
We will leave possessions for which we've strived so hard.
The body's guest house the guest, consciousness, will lose.
To renounce this life is what bodhisattvas do.



དཀོན་མཆོག་ཐོགས་མེད་འབྱམས་པ

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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by xabir »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:01 pm Any great Dharanis Sutra Level that don’t require initiation can anyone recommend any?

:juggling:
Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāraṇī
The very pulsing of dependent origination
Is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.
Like blood and veins and heart
- The two truths meet everywhere.

- André A. Pais
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Zhen Li »

It might depend on the tradition, but I understand that the majority of dhāraṇīs are fine for everyone. They are mostly coming from non-tantric Mahāyāna sūtras that anyone can read. Mahāyāna sūtras consistently list possessing dhāraṇī as one of the virtues possessed by all bodhisattvas, this does not really mean anything on the tantric level.

Maybe it is easier to ask: how do you know if a dhāraṇī requires initiation?

If the text that contains the dhāraṇī is called a "tantra" or "sādhana," or if the text itself says you need abhiṣeka to practice the dhāraṇī, then you should get initiation first.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Aemilius »

"Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally. Some people grasp at outer rituals, they cannot trust a mind to mind transmission. They cannot trust normal teaching from one person to another person. For their sake the ritualistic system has arisen and it exists. Ofcourse tantric rituals are nice and exotic, and maybe even useful. But they are not necessarily something else than what takes place in an informal teaching situation.

What is "sadhana" in chinese? Do they have this terminology in their tradition? Like in the teaching and tradition of the Meditation Sutra of the Pureland school?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Zhen Li »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am What is "sadhana" in chinese? Do they have this terminology in their tradition? Like in the teaching and tradition of the Meditation Sutra of the Pureland school?
There is a Chinese tantra tradition. The Pure Land school has little to no interaction with it, but there are tantric pure land practices.

The word sādhanā is translated as 成就儀 (achievement), but as a textual category, it is probably more equivalent to 陀羅尼經 (Dhāraṇī Sūtra). Texts with the suffix "-sādhanā" in Sanskrit, are sometimes given this suffix in Chinese.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am "Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally.
You don't know what you are talking about.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Marenz »

Is lung necessary for the Sitātapatrā dhāraṇī (Ārya-tathāgatoṣṇīṣa-sitātapatrāparājita-mahā-pratyaṅgirāparama-siddhā-nāma-dhāraṇī)?
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am "Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Many instances in teachings of Shakyamuni can be described as initiations. "Initiation" means that your introduced to an aspect of reality or to something that you didn't know before. You are thus initiated into something.

If you take for example the story of Nanda, in Nanda sutta/sutra. In this sutra Buddha shows an aspect of reality to Nanda. Nanda is also given a promise or prophecy of future attainment. And he is given a practice for this end. These are all aspects of tantric initiation.
If you don't know the content of Nand sutta, see https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


"Mircea Eliade discussed initiation as a principal religious act by classical or traditional societies. He defined initiation as "a basic change in existential condition", which liberates man from profane time and history. "Initiation recapitulates the sacred history of the world. And through this recapitulation, the whole world is sanctified anew... [the initiand] can perceive the world as a sacred work, a creation of the Gods."

"Initiation is a rite of passage marking entrance or acceptance into a group or society. It could also be a formal admission to adulthood in a community or one of its formal components. In an extended sense it can also signify a transformation in which the initiate is 'reborn' into a new role. Examples of initiation ceremonies might include Christian baptism or confirmation, Jewish bar or bat mitzvah, acceptance into a fraternal organization, secret society or religious order, or graduation from school or recruit training. A person taking the initiation ceremony in traditional rites, such as those depicted in these pictures, is called an initiate.

"Eliade differentiates between types of initiations in two ways: types and functions.

Reasons for and functions

- "this real valuation of ritual death finally led to conquest of the fear of real death."
- "[initiation's] function is to reveal the deep meaning of existence to the new generations and to help them assume the responsibility of being truly men and hence of participating in culture."
- "it reveals a world open to the trans-human, a world that, in our philosophical terminology, we should call transcendental."
- "to make [the initiand] open to spiritual values."

Types

- Puberty rites: "collective rituals whose function is to effect the transition from childhood or adolescence to adulthood." They represent "above all the revelation of the sacred."
- Entering into a Secret Society
- Mystical vocation: "the vocation of a medicine man or a shaman." This is limited to the few who are "destined to participate in a more intense religious experience than is accessible to the rest of the community."

These can be broken into two types:

- puberty rites, "by virtue of which adolescents gain access to the sacred, to knowledge, and to sexuality-- by which, in short, they become human beings."
- specialized initiations, which certain individuals undergo in order to transcend their human condition and become protégés of the Supernatural Beings or even their equals."

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiation
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by ninespokes »

Tritsab Gyabra Rinpoche is giving a transmission of this dharani on May 23, if you or anyone else is interested.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Marenz »

ninespokes wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:26 am Tritsab Gyabra Rinpoche is giving a transmission of this dharani on May 23, if you or anyone else is interested.
Thanks!
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am "Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Many instances in teachings of Shakyamuni can be described as initiations. "
You still don’t know what you are talking about.
Momento mori.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Soma999 »

My experience is that with a true master, even casual words can be a transmission. Some transmission can introduce - initiate - you to certain mysteries.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Aryjna »

Soma999 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:26 pm My experience is that with a true master, even casual words can be a transmission. Some transmission can introduce - initiate - you to certain mysteries.
Even if true, this is it out of topic. In the context of this thread, and Vajrayana in general, "initiation" is the translation of a word that has a very specific meaning, so using it in all kinds of different ways is misleading while not serving any useful purpose whatsoever.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:26 pm My experience is that with a true master, even casual words can be a transmission. Some transmission can introduce - initiate - you to certain mysteries.
You also have demonstrated repeatedly that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Montoya »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am "Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally.
You don't know what you are talking about.
In a recent thread (quoted below), you make a clear distinction between formal and informal forms of initiation. Can you clarify what you don't agree with in the above statement?

From Malcolm:

Do you think Garab Dorje gave Mañjuśrīmitra a ritual empowerment?

Ritual empowerments are not necessary in Dzogchen, but it depends a bit on the capacity of the student. There are various levels of empowerment in Dzogchen, from elaborate rituals to very simple explanations. They are all considered "ripening empowerments."

If you meet a master like ChNN, and he explains to you the meaning of Dzogchen teachings, using symbols and experiences, this is an empowerment. My other main teacher, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, use to give Dzogchen transmission on the basis of explaining the calling the guru from afar text he had written. Indeed, he used to tease us for asking him for this empowerment and that empowerment, calling this "the play of children." He clarified that the teacher is the empowerment. ChNN made a very similar point about his master, Changchub Dorje, saying that everything Changchub Dorje did was itself transmission.

It is good for beginners to be a little formal, and so on. But don't get stuck on formality.

*End Quote*
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Re: Dharanis that don’t require initiation

Post by Malcolm »

Montoya wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:38 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:17 am "Initiation" or "abhisheka" can take place formally or informally.
You don't know what you are talking about.
In a recent thread (quoted below), you make a clear distinction between formal and informal forms of initiation. Can you clarify what you don't agree with in the above statement?
Abhisheka is a very precise term for a specific rite. It was the incorrect use of that word that prompted my initial comment. There are many kinds of transmission in Buddhadharma. But these two gentlemen regularly speak of such things in a very haphazard, irresponsible manner that is misleading.

When speaking of how Dzogchen is transmitted, for example, as in sutra, the kind of transmission depends on the capacity of the practitioner. These issues are detailed precisely in various authoritative commentaries. It’s true that Dzogchen transmission does not need to be wrapped up in a complicated mandala ritual, but it still has identifiable principles of transmission that have written about extensively, the most important of which are the teacher’s intent and the student’s receptivity. The teacher must be able to and intend to give transmission and the student has to be receptive and proactive in receiving transmissions. The details depend on a variety of factors. For example Manjushrimitra was a highly trained pandita as well as a Vajrayana practitioner already when he met Garab Dorje. Garab Dorje was a Indian child prodigy, a nirmanakaya.

Especially when discussing the other Vajrayana systems, a formal set of ritual empowerments is essential. There are many reasons for this, not least of which is the assertion that the result, buddhahood depends on gathering the two accumulations.
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