Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

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SaaZ
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Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by SaaZ »

Hello everyone,

I came across this quote: “When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay and die.”

From the bibliography it says come from the Paramatthajotika I and from the book of W. Rahula “what the Buddha taught”.

I googled Paramatthajotika but I couldn’t find anything, while in the book of Rahula there isn’t a reference.

Is this quote present in the Pali canon? What is Paramatthajotika I? Does someone know if the same concept is present in some sutras of the pali canon (or even from Mahayana texts)?

Thank youu
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Astus
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by Astus »

SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pmIs this quote present in the Pali canon? What is Paramatthajotika I? Does someone know if the same concept is present in some sutras of the pali canon (or even from Mahayana texts)?
It is found in the commentary to Kp 4 (the Kumārapañhavaṇṇanā), to the first question, as a saying attributed to the Buddha. But as Rahula himself notes in his book, there is no sign of such a saying in the canon itself. It is also unlikely to be found, since the idea of momentariness is post-canonical.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
SaaZ
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by SaaZ »

Thank you!

When you say that the idea of momentariness is post-canonical, you mean that It start to appear consistently only in later text?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:22 pm Thank you!

When you say that the idea of momentariness is post-canonical, you mean that It start to appear consistently only in later text?
At least for a moment it seems to.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
SaaZ
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by SaaZ »

Thanks.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “momentariness”, but the Bhaddekarattasutta seems to resonate with this concept…
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Astus
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by Astus »

SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:22 pmWhen you say that the idea of momentariness is post-canonical, you mean that It start to appear consistently only in later text?
'The cursory examination of the still-extant Abhidharmapitakas undertaken in this chapter suggests that in them, as in the Nikayas/Agamas, the theory of momentariness is not postulated as a canonical doctrine and is only attested, if at all, as a sectarian stance to be refuted. This implies that the theory developed after the schism of the sects within certain schools and is in that sense a post-canonical development which, judging from the little evidence reviewed here, may date back as far as the first century A.D. and possibly even beyond.'
(The Buddhist Doctrine of Momentariness by Alexander von Rospatt, p 28)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
SaaZ
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by SaaZ »

I see, thanks!
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Dhammanando
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by Dhammanando »

SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pm I came across this quote: “When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay and die.”
You can read the quote in context on page 81 of Ñanamoli's translation. He uses "categories" in place of "aggregates":

https://archive.org/details/PaliComment ... 0/mode/2up
SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pmDoes someone know if the same concept is present in some sutras of the pali canon (or even from Mahayana texts)?
In the Pali Canon you can find the same idea expressed in the Niddesa's detailed exposition of the Guhaṭṭha­ka­sutta (Snp 4:2)­. The Niddesa is a canonical commentary included in the Khuddaka Nikāya. It's regarded by academic scholars as a late addition to the Pali Tipitaka, though Theravada tradition assigns its authorship to Sāriputta:

Here the author is commenting on the Guhaṭṭha­ka­sutta's line, "'Truly short is this life,' say the wise."
Jīvitaṃ attabhāvo ca, sukhadukkhā ca kevalā;
Eka­cit­tasamā­yuttā, lahuso vattate khaṇo.


Life, person, pleasure, pain just these alone
Join in one conscious moment that flicks by.

Cullā­sīti­sahas­sāni, kappā tiṭṭhanti ye marū;
Na tveva tepi jīvanti, dvīhi cittehi saṃyutā.


Gods, though they live for four-and-eighty thousand
Eons, are not the same for two such moments.

Ye niruddhā marantassa, tiṭṭhamānassa vā idha;
Sabbepi sadisā khandhā, gatā appaṭisandhikā.


Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive
Are all alike, gone never to return;

Anantarā ca ye bhaggā, ye ca bhaggā anāgatā;
Tadantare niruddhānaṃ, vesamaṃ natthi lakkhaṇe.


And those that break up meanwhile, and in future,
Have traits no different from those ceased before.

Anibbattena na jāto, paccuppannena jīvati;
Cittabhaggā mato loko, paññatti paramatthiyā.


No world is born if consciousness is not
Produced; when that is present, then it lives;
When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead:
The highest sense this concept will allow.

Anidhānagatā bhaggā, puñjo natthi anāgate;
Nibbattā ye ca tiṭṭhanti, āragge sāsapūpamā.


No store of broken states, no future stock;
Those born balance like seeds on needle points.

Nibbattānañca dhammānaṃ, bhaṅgo nesaṃ purakkhato;
Palokadhammā tiṭṭhanti, purāṇehi amissitā.


Breakup of states is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.

Adassanato āyanti, bhaṅgā gacchan­t­ya­dassa­naṃ;
Vijjuppādova ākāse, uppajjanti vayanti cāti.


They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.
(Nidd I 42)
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by Leo Rivers »

Astus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:51 pm
SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pm the idea of momentariness is post-canonical.
What is the source of this idea, then, please?
:reading:
mikenz66
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by mikenz66 »

Leo Rivers wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:20 pm
Astus wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:51 pm
SaaZ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:40 pm the idea of momentariness is post-canonical.
What is the source of this idea, then, please?
:reading:
While there are some passages in the suttas/sutras and abhidhamma/abhidharma that can be interpreted as momentariness, there is nothing explicit, unlike the Commentaries. Unfortunately, the term "Abhidhamma" is often used to mean "Abhidhamma and Commentaries", not the books of the Canonical Abhidhamma.

Here's an extract from Bhikkhu Sujato's Introduction to the Canonical Abhidhamma on Sutta Central
The Books of the Theravāda Abhidhamma

For the most part, the long and complex texts of the Theravāda Abhidhamma are concerned with analyzing and classifying material, not with explaining it. Presumably they would have been taught by experienced teachers in monasteries, who would have drawn out, explained, and illustrated the abstruse texts. Eventually such explanations were codified and recorded in the Pali commentaries.

While they introduced a number of new terms and methods, the canonical Abhidhamma texts are doctrinally conservative. Many of the concepts familiar from later Abhidhamma are not found—ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or indvidual essence. While some new terms are found, for the most part they seem to have been introduced in order to clarify and disambiguate the terminology, and weren’t intended to convey specific new concepts. That is not to say that there are no new ideas, just that they play a fairly minor role overall.

https://suttacentral.net/abhidhamma-gui ... to?lang=en
And some other discussions: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=33545

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Mike
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula

Post by Leo Rivers »

Thanks MIKE and Dharma Wheel... :P

And I found this...

The Buddhist doctrine of Momentariness, By Alexander Von Rospatt

Article Summary
The object of the Buddhist doctrine of momentariness is not the nature of time, but existence within time. Rather than atomizing time into moments, it atomizes phenomena temporally by dissecting them into a succession of discrete momentary entities. Its fundamental proposition is that everything passes out of existence as soon as it has originated and in this sense is momentary. As an entity vanishes, it gives rise to a new entity of almost the same nature which originates immediately afterwards. Thus, there is an uninterrupted flow of causally connected momentary entities of nearly the same nature, the so-called continuum (santāna). These entities succeed each other so fast that the process cannot be discerned by ordinary perception. Because earlier and later entities within one continuum are almost exactly alike, we come to conceive of something as a temporally extended entity even though the fact that it is in truth nothing but a series of causally connected momentary entities. According to this doctrine, the world (including the sentient beings inhabiting it) is at every moment distinct from the world in the previous or next moment. It is, however, linked to the past and future by the law of causality in so far as a phenomenon usually engenders a phenomenon of its kind when it perishes, so that the world originating in the next moment reflects the world in the preceding moment.

At the root of Buddhism lies the (never questioned) conviction that everything that has originated is bound to perish and is therefore, with the exception of factors conducive to enlightenment, ultimately a source of frustration. There is no surviving textual material that documents how this law of impermanence came to be radicalized in terms of momentariness. It seems that by the fourth century the doctrine of momentariness had already assumed its final form. Characteristically, the debate became more and more dominated by epistemological questions, while the metaphysical aspect faded into the background.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... xMce4EphJe

and this PDF of the book...

A Survey of the Origins and Early Phase
of this Doctrine up to Vasubandhu

NOTE: "The contents of the present study has been summarized chapter by chapter in the introduction."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... lFAVVFLY1f
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