Is love an illusion?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Bristollad
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Bristollad »

Ardha wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:25 pm
I understand what they mean by it in the quote though which is why it bugs me and has me in knots. It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.

Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
Why do you feel that that post by some random dude on the internet is true? Why do you think it accurately reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

As for the bond of affection I shared with my parents; it was a lot more than a tit for tat exchange of pleasantries and aid. They loved and helped me when I was being a shit. I loved them even when they were critical and annoying, that's why their opinions hurt and mattered so much.

Yes, we are attracted and attached to some qualities we see in our partners or prospective partners. That's what we like about them. When we see their unattractive qualities as well and still wish to spend our lives with them, helping them, growing old with them, then that's a deeper thing - romantic love.

When we can love another without clinging or attachment, wanting them to be happy and have the causes of happiness whoever they are, whatever their behaviour, however likeable or unattractive they are, then we're beginning to touch the sort of love the Buddha praised.
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Virgo
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Virgo »

Bristollad wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:15 pm Why do you feel that that post by some random dude on the internet is true? Why do you think it accurately reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

As for the bond of affection I shared with my parents; it was a lot more than a tit for tat exchange of pleasantries and aid. They loved and helped me when I was being a shit. I loved them even when they were critical and annoying, that's why their opinions hurt and mattered so much.

Yes, we are attracted and attached to some qualities we see in our partners or prospective partners. That's what we like about them. When we see their unattractive qualities as well and still wish to spend our lives with them, helping them, growing old with them, then that's a deeper thing - romantic love.

When we can love another without clinging or attachment, wanting them to be happy and have the causes of happiness whoever they are, whatever their behaviour, however likeable or unattractive they are, then we're beginning to touch the sort of love the Buddha praised.
Will you say it with Bristollian accent please. :)

Virgo
Bristollad
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Bristollad »

Virgo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm Will you say it with Bristollian accent please. :)
Alright my luvver!
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Virgo
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Virgo »

Bristollad wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:35 pm
Virgo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm Will you say it with Bristollian accent please. :)
Alright my luvver!
Yay! :woohoo:

'Ark at he!

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Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

Mercury,

Image

is in the Virgo constellation.

I predict that by the end of Mercury's transit, some will ascertain all sorts of interesting things: not only that love is the fiber of the Universe, but other
analytical, meticulous results with much attention to detail.

For their work, some will be praised while others not so much.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:25 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:44 am It's fundamentaly difficult to understand, because our thought patterns are different.
Giving up judgmental thinking is a very helpful exercise. It helps in so many cases.

You don't have to say, this buddhist idea of illusion is true. That's difficult and you can reach that understanding only by "study, contemplation & meditation". This needs a lot of time until you reach some insight.
Therefore, you cannot find truth by hastily judging and discussing. And this is true in so many other situations in life as well.
I understand what they mean by it in the quote though which is why it bugs me and has me in knots. It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.

Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
In the Mahayana, we try to take the love we feel towards our mothers- that they unconditionally birthed us, cared for us, etc. and apply it universally to all sentient beings, as all sentient beings are worthy of it.
Don’t you see what’s wrong with the world today? Oh Everybody wants somebody to be their own piece of clay.

-Marvin Gaye
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Ayu
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ayu »

Ardha wrote: It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.
Well, I personally have difficulties with understanding your concern.
In my view, there's no relation to buddhist teachings. I know these kinds of doubts from my early years and first love, when I never heard of any Buddhist idea. Isn't this kind of doubt completely common?
People swear eternal love out of a very emotional state. But how true is it? Do they love or do they want to love only? That's a common and valid question, completely apart from any idea of emptiness or anatman.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
muni
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

Ardha wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:25 pm
Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
Ardha, I had a mom who didn't care at all for me, causing lots of problems. When she was old she asked me to forgive her.
When we see those seemingly not worth to be loved, be sure they need love but it can be their confusion is like a wall, so that love is not 'arriving'. And sometimes it is for us very hard to even try to love those who harmed us.

I think it is impossible to love all. Because there will always be some causing us sadness or making us upset.
Guided Compassion/love meditation in Buddhism serves to soften a bit our self idea. This could be more helpful than trying to love everyone. And actually it can sound odd, but then all can be included in love, because there is then not so strong self-other separation.


Meanwhile we can try to remember: A peaceful happy mind will not harm, has not that intention to do so. Therefore those who harm, are not happy, not peaceful, no mind at ease. And that is sad.
We cannot even begin to commit ourselves to the path of selfless compassion if our mind is unable to sense the sameness of the ground we all stand upon. Khandro Rinpoche.

When remaining in awareness itself, every thought movement, no matter what kind, is like a drawing in air.
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UOcXiBGGb8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HySLYcu2ULA
Ardha
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ardha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:26 am
Ardha wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:25 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:44 am It's fundamentaly difficult to understand, because our thought patterns are different.
Giving up judgmental thinking is a very helpful exercise. It helps in so many cases.

You don't have to say, this buddhist idea of illusion is true. That's difficult and you can reach that understanding only by "study, contemplation & meditation". This needs a lot of time until you reach some insight.
Therefore, you cannot find truth by hastily judging and discussing. And this is true in so many other situations in life as well.
I understand what they mean by it in the quote though which is why it bugs me and has me in knots. It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.

Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
In the Mahayana, we try to take the love we feel towards our mothers- that they unconditionally birthed us, cared for us, etc. and apply it universally to all sentient beings, as all sentient beings are worthy of it.
I think that might depend on the kind of mother that you had. That they birthed us, I feel, isn't something to praise them for. Being birthed is something forced upon you and that you have to deal with, at least how I see it. She might have cared for me but it was material care, she never really accepted the person I was and tried to get me to do things that she knew I didn't like. She had this idea for me and didn't like that I wasn't matching that image. If anything I vowed to myself as a teen that I would never be like my mother. I could never talk to her about anything because I was never heard, she just responded with a story that had nothing to do with it or downplayed my issues. Maybe some mothers were like that but not mine.
Bristollad wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:15 pm
Ardha wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:25 pm
I understand what they mean by it in the quote though which is why it bugs me and has me in knots. It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.

Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
Why do you feel that that post by some random dude on the internet is true? Why do you think it accurately reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

As for the bond of affection I shared with my parents; it was a lot more than a tit for tat exchange of pleasantries and aid. They loved and helped me when I was being a shit. I loved them even when they were critical and annoying, that's why their opinions hurt and mattered so much.

Yes, we are attracted and attached to some qualities we see in our partners or prospective partners. That's what we like about them. When we see their unattractive qualities as well and still wish to spend our lives with them, helping them, growing old with them, then that's a deeper thing - romantic love.

When we can love another without clinging or attachment, wanting them to be happy and have the causes of happiness whoever they are, whatever their behaviour, however likeable or unattractive they are, then we're beginning to touch the sort of love the Buddha praised.
I guess it just seemed like it was true. I've had a bad time when it comes to disagreeing with people on the internet.
master of puppets
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

Genetically 1/3 percent of you contains of your mother.
you live it and couldn't escape.
my advice is to keep your respect.

ı have a father acting like a scorpion. whose only job is to bite day&night. yet up to now ı never cut the painter but always try to make him live 2 more days. whether it costs my own health..
Bristollad
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Bristollad »

Ardha wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:04 am I think that might depend on the kind of mother that you had. That they birthed us, I feel, isn't something to praise them for.
One of my teachers, when talking about remembering the kindness of our mothers, emphasized that thinking about the suffering our mothers went through whilst pregnant and when giving birth should be enough. Any difficulties we might have subsequently had growing up were irrelevant to the great gift she had bestowed on us, our birth. Your view that your birth was unkindly thrust upon you disregards the Buddhist understanding of rebirth.

You complain that your mother doesn't actually love you because she has her own views and ideas about what you could do and be and what would make you happy. Yet you seem to limit your own acceptance of your mother because she disagrees with your views.

As has been said to you a few times, I advise you to put aside the teachings on anatman and emptiness for now and concentrate on ethics, meditation practice and developing the four immeasurable thoughts: these are metta (loving kindness), karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy or empathy), and upekkha (equanimity). Start doing them with those people you find easy, and then gradually expand your focus to include those who are more difficult.
ManyHeart
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by ManyHeart »

Hello I read through all of this--
Two things are: love is a powerful thing if used in a good way -- in one of his books, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said that Buddahood is -'the perfection of wisdom, love and power' (I am sorry this is not an exact quote, but it was those.) In any case, it may be Upadesha but still it's a very good point. Thich Nhat Hanh talks about love a great deal as well, "If you love a person, but never make yourself available to them, that is not true love." comes to mind and, "You must love in such a way that the person you love feels free." So -- love is maybe an illusion for some, but for others it is very real. Also we could ask, "What is love?" that is a very interesting but infinite question, as in, "What is light," or "What is energy," and most perhaps Western Buddhists will shy away from this as it is a little bit reminiscent of other religious systems of thought (or perhaps without the 'other') which have become corrupt or have been used for ill.

And there are scriptural references which say "Do not love," so this is a fallback -- but I believe this is more in the idea of avoid both attachment and aversion. So in Thich Nhat Hanh, he is seemingly saying "Love, but without trapping them," so this would seem to follow the non-attachment, and non-aversion type of thing. But let's address pain for a moment. Because pain is definitely there -- and one of the central questions of the inner life is to understand, to heal and so forth this type of thing. Mothers have pain of childbirth, but even more so, there is pain simply in existence . . . .

So loving even though there is pain; loving without pain, and so forht, all of these are important. Can we love perfectly? Well of course -- And it's easier with maybe pets who love us absolutely almost, or unconditionally. (Some people might say unconditional love is maybe even hard for a dog to achieve, but it seems very much to be there in many animals that love us.) [and I don't mean to say we are less than dogs :namaste: :sage:]

But Joshu just said, "Meh" when asked if a Dog has Buddha-nature... (ok ok, just a little maybe funny humor -- :tongue: ) Ok I did want to just quickly say -- Bristollad -- I think that is right from Buddha or straight from the sutras unless I'm mistaken......And yeah -- others also correctly downplayed the negativity of a rando saying "You don't love *Them* you just love a 'thing' about them" -- on the surface and I would say in the depth of it that is simply conflict-for-no-purpose, i,e., just a mistaken way of viewing; or at worst, nihilism.

--ManyHeart
Bristollad
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Bristollad »

ManyHeart wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:33 pm Ok I did want to just quickly say -- Bristollad -- I think that is right from Buddha or straight from the sutras unless I'm mistaken.
What is? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.
Bundokji
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Bundokji »

Love as infatuation between a man and a woman is a common phenomena. It is necessary for the continuity of the race and for making families, but it does not last. In that sense, it can be said to be delusional.

Between birth and death, where the human experience takes place, there is a wide spectrum of perceptions which can serve different purposes. For the purposes of seeking and developing wisdom, infatuation or love does not rank high. If you were to present the same question to a hedonist for example, you might get a similar answer for different reasons. For a hedonist, love is not real in the sense that it could limit indulgence with more partners. At a very superficial level, you might equate a hedonist with a wise person based on receiving similar answers from them, that love is an illusion. However, the interplay of forces within them can be completely different.
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant
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