Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

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wei wu wei
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Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by wei wu wei »

Do you feel any pull towards setting up an altar that is in keeping with your tradition (e.g., a more Tibetan altar would look pretty different from a Zen altar)? Or do you go more universal or simply go with personal preference? What happens if you've changed traditions--do you feel any need to re-align your altar with your new tradition? Should one try to keep an altar in line with their tradition or simply go with whatever inspires them?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Altars/shrines can draw out our obsessive tendencies, like setting up model railroad sets.
And you know you’re hooked when you find that everything you see at Target store, or M&S, you wonder if it would make a nice cloth, or incense burner, or if that big glass salad bowl that’s on sale sounds like a gong.

In the Tibetan tradition I follow, a shrine at minimum has objects resenting the three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher.

Beyond that, anything suitable can be offered, and most people go with the traditional offerings in a row of bowls. But many people include a few items that have personal or sentimental value. Sometime pictures of loved ones at the lower level of the shrine.

But I’ve come to realize (to me anyway) that just having traditional stuff there without it really having any personal meaning, it just becomes clutter, or props on a stage. I’m a big fan of Godzilla, so there is a small one standing in as Dharma protector.

Most Tibetan shrines tend to spread our horizontally. I prefer the tall, Chinese style vertical cabinet style, so that’s what I use. Before I acquired that (a used, put it together yourself cabinet) I used a small, black Japanese style altar box with doors on the front of it.

For a fun waste of time, do an image search using the keyword phrase, “my Buddhist altar” and see all the different ways people come up with.
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wei wu wei
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by wei wu wei »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:34 am Altars/shrines can draw out our obsessive tendencies, like setting up model railroad sets.
And you know you’re hooked when you find that everything you see at Target store, or M&S, you wonder if it would make a nice cloth, or incense burner, or if that big glass salad bowl that’s on sale sounds like a gong.
Yes, this is totally relatable! The model railroad comparison is spot on.

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:34 am But I’ve come to realize (to me anyway) that just having traditional stuff there without it really having any personal meaning, it just becomes clutter, or props on a stage. I’m a big fan of Godzilla, so there is a small one standing in as Dharma protector.
This is very insightful. Love the idea of Godzilla too. This set me thinking for sure.

I've had an altar for years but it started more as an East-Asian Korean-Japanese style interpretation, but as I've transitioned into a Tibetan tradition, I've found myself wanting to re-build it and was just wondering if this is an odd impulse or if others have experienced the same thing.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

wei wu wei wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:59 am I've found myself wanting to re-build it and was just wondering if this is an odd impulse or if others have experienced the same thing.
I believe it depends on the individual.
For some people, setting it up once, and (except for cleaning once a year) keeping it the same from then on, it has a sense of reliability and familiarity, of groundedness.

A shrine or altar shouldn’t be changed all the time. That’s just restless obsession. But there’s also the aspect of not getting too attached to the idea that “this is the only way the altar can be.” Your life is always changing. With Dharma practice, improving. So, mix it up a little now and then if you feel so inclined.

The main thing to remember is to keep it and the area around it clean. Offer the best you can offer but not to the point of trying to set up some glorious treasure display. This is sometimes a challenge for western students new to this, because we want it to “look authentic” and we easily forget that it just needs to “be” authentic, and there is no single recipe for that. It is only as authentic as the practice of the one who sets it up in the first place.
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ManiThePainter
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by ManiThePainter »

Would it be totally inappropriate to set up a shrine in one’s walk-in closet? Say, on a dresser?

I do have clothes on racks and shelves above it. Not sure if there should be clothes or anything above the statues/images…
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wei wu wei
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by wei wu wei »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:20 am
wei wu wei wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:59 am I've found myself wanting to re-build it and was just wondering if this is an odd impulse or if others have experienced the same thing.
I believe it depends on the individual.
For some people, setting it up once, and (except for cleaning once a year) keeping it the same from then on, it has a sense of reliability and familiarity, of groundedness.

A shrine or altar shouldn’t be changed all the time. That’s just restless obsession. But there’s also the aspect of not getting too attached to the idea that “this is the only way the altar can be.” Your life is always changing. With Dharma practice, improving. So, mix it up a little now and then if you feel so inclined.

The main thing to remember is to keep it and the area around it clean. Offer the best you can offer but not to the point of trying to set up some glorious treasure display. This is sometimes a challenge for western students new to this, because we want it to “look authentic” and we easily forget that it just needs to “be” authentic, and there is no single recipe for that. It is only as authentic as the practice of the one who sets it up in the first place.
Again, great insights all around. Thanks!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

ManiThePainter wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:30 pm Would it be totally inappropriate to set up a shrine in one’s walk-in closet? Say, on a dresser?

I do have clothes on racks and shelves above it. Not sure if there should be clothes or anything above the statues/images…
You offer the best place you are able to. If the best place is in a closet, then that’s the best place.
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nyonchung
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by nyonchung »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:34 am Altars/shrines can draw out our obsessive tendencies, like setting up model railroad sets.
And you know you’re hooked when you find that everything you see at Target store, or M&S, you wonder if it would make a nice cloth, or incense burner, or if that big glass salad bowl that’s on sale sounds like a gong.

In the Tibetan tradition I follow, a shrine at minimum has objects resenting the three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher.

Beyond that, anything suitable can be offered, and most people go with the traditional offerings in a row of bowls. But many people include a few items that have personal or sentimental value. Sometime pictures of loved ones at the lower level of the shrine.

But I’ve come to realize (to me anyway) that just having traditional stuff there without it really having any personal meaning, it just becomes clutter, or props on a stage. I’m a big fan of Godzilla, so there is a small one standing in as Dharma protector.

Most Tibetan shrines tend to spread our horizontally. I prefer the tall, Chinese style vertical cabinet style, so that’s what I use. Before I acquired that (a used, put it together yourself cabinet) I used a small, black Japanese style altar box with doors on the front of it.

For a fun waste of time, do an image search using the keyword phrase, “my Buddhist altar” and see all the different ways people come up with.

True, they "can draw out our obsessive tendencies, like setting up model railroad sets." but OMG "three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
But should be representations of the Buddha's body ( statue, a rupa, as Trungpists love to say), speech (a text), and mind, a small stupa ( a photo of one can do).
Once consecrated, a statue is the Buddha.
One's own teacher is certainly not the Sangha, but the either the Buddha, or, better, the union of all refuges / jewels
In Tibetan tradition, that I follow since a few decades, there are specific offerings to be done, the seven bowls + light, a mandala, food, tormas, puja items (this is where "obsessive tendencies" start)

And as Godzilla for dharmapala , you will have to take your wrathful aspect, summon him, convert him and give him lay practitioner vow :jumping:
If you received Dharmapalas empowerments, they might feel it a bit disparaging ...

In Tibetan practice, you can do without all the paraphernalia, and visualize them, but this requests an already quite stable mind, and in certain practices, tormas are important - my old teachers, when confronted to the European (urban) way of life replaced them with biscuits.
For instance for Dharmapalas, plus they drink alcohol ...
After, it depends on your practices, tastes, connections, space, financial capabilities

Don't forget wealth deities
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:25 pm
but OMG "three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
Certainly. Otherwise, what is the point of saying the guru is the embodiment of the Three Jewels? So below, you contradict yourself
One's own teacher is... the union of all refuges / jewels
Hence a sufficient representation.
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nyonchung
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:38 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:25 pm
but OMG "three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
Certainly. Otherwise, what is the point of saying the guru is the embodiment of the Three Jewels? So below, you contradict yourself
One's own teacher is... the union of all refuges / jewels
Hence a sufficient representation.
Not really, in a formal shrine, body speech and mind have to be present - as a support of offering - in their absence (not everybody has necessary space, interest, etc.), one's master's picture will do (as a support for offerings - rten) - being both embodiment of the sku gsum and the union of all refuges - but certainly not only as a representation of the sangha, since on a shrine specifically body / speech / mind should be present.
This doesn't precluding the fact the actual guru being in essence the three jewels and source of all blessing, his representation alone can replace the sku gsung thugs and all parapharnelia of one's choice.
Same way, one's yidam image alone will do etc.

Or a stupa - there was a thread monthes ago were you rightly advised not to build them anywhere ...
Now, if we talk of a full-fledged temple, gtsug lag khang, we will need an actual sangha, but this another story

Thanks and regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:01 pm
Not really, in a formal shrine...
These are just Tibetan lineage customs. There is no real rule book for these things. Indian bali was chapatis, not elaborate torma sculptures with butter ornaments, etc. Eight offerings are just articles used by Indians to welcome guests, etc. It is unlikely they were arranged the way Tibetans now do. Just look at how they arrange these things in a Shingon alter. No stupa, no text.

For example, ChNN specified the only thing one really needs for a shrine is a picture of A in thigle of five colors, a candle for offering, and incense for dharmapālas, and this is enough for a formal shrine. If one like to do more, of course, one can.

There is no one right way. So, it is sufficient for one's home shrine to simply have a picture of one's guru.

So we agree.
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nyonchung
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:10 pm

These are just Tibetan lineage customs. There is no real rule book for these things. Indian bali was chapatis, not elaborate torma sculptures with butter ornaments, etc. Eight offerings are just articles used by Indians to welcome guests, etc. It is unlikely they were arranged the way Tibetans now do. Just look at how they arrange these things in a Shingon alter. No stupa, no text.

For example, ChNN specified the only thing one really needs for a shrine is a picture of A in thigle of five colors, a candle for offering, and incense for dharmapālas, and this is enough for a formal shrine. If one like to do more, of course, one can.

There is no one right way. So, it is sufficient for one's home shrine to simply have a picture of one's guru.

So we agree.
Certainly, the presence of the sku gsung thugs is only recommanded for a full-fledged gtsug lag khang that will be anyway incomplete without an incomplete (ordained) sangha - details I got long ago from Pangboché dge bshes (a student of Dzongsar Khyentsé), and that may apply for a large elaborate family shrine (mchod khang) like Sherpas or Tibetan have, where practitioners (lay or ordained) are regularly called for puja, beinga place that is actually consecrated.
For such a place, I'd follow your advice on stupas, one has to be very careful on what will happen of it later: OK if the place is donated to a teacher, a dharma center etc., or if you have descendants who will follow on the tradition of a Buddhist sbyin bdag - which is assumed bu Sherpas for instance.
Through karmic propensities I somehow tend to see this a little bit that exuberant way (this is xhat I mean by "formal shrine") ... but unnecessary as such .

My (kagyüpa) teachers never insisted much on keeping an elaborate shrine - Bokar Ripoché gave sensible advice, I think in "The Day of a Buddhist Practitioner".
The eight offerings are considered as a minimum for puja, plus torma = biscuits.
As for balin, Newar Buddhists are keeping old Indian traditions, simple cones of flour, shrine offerings are more simple (5), their ganacakra and carya traditions are certainly more in line with lost Indian ways than most of what evoluted in Tibet.
Hindus also use balin of an equivalent shape.
Now,
What about Godzilla?
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:15 pm What about Godzilla?
I don't know, little dated. Transformers (sentient robot/vehicles) are a more in keeping with the times.
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:25 pm “Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
If thats all you’ve got, it certainly is. And even if you have all sorts of images, statues, whatever, it still is.
The refuge name card given out by my teacher, he explained, was in fact enough, as it contains an image of the Buddha (this, Buddha), the refuge prayer (Dharma) and an image of the Karmapa (Sangha).
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nyonchung
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by nyonchung »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:26 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:25 pm “Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
If thats all you’ve got, it certainly is. And even if you have all sorts of images, statues, whatever, it still is.
The refuge name card given out by my teacher, he explained, was in fact enough, as it contains an image of the Buddha (this, Buddha), the refuge prayer (Dharma) and an image of the Karmapa (Sangha).
As an old karma-kagyüpa, I find definitely strange that the Karmapa is assimilated to Sangha
The point being simply that two different set of things are mixed here:
- the three jewels that are the places (yul) of refuge
- the three support (rten) of the three bodies (mind, speech, body) of the Buddha that are to be present in formal sitting (see above)

I agree with Malcolm that (in the present case) the Karmapa image, if he is your root teacher, is enough, without futher elaborations
Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:26 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:25 pm “Sangha is often represented by a picture of one’s teacher." Certainly not.
If thats all you’ve got, it certainly is. And even if you have all sorts of images, statues, whatever, it still is.
The refuge name card given out by my teacher, he explained, was in fact enough, as it contains an image of the Buddha (this, Buddha), the refuge prayer (Dharma) and an image of the Karmapa (Sangha).
As an old karma-kagyüpa, I find definitely strange that the Karmapa is assimilated to Sangha
The point being simply that two different set of things are mixed here:
- the three jewels that are the places (yul) of refuge
- the three support (rten) of the three bodies (mind, speech, body) of the Buddha that are to be present in formal sitting (see above)

I agree with Malcolm that (in the present case) the Karmapa image, if he is your root teacher, is enough, without futher elaborations
Regards
Well, what difference does it make?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm As an old karma-kagyüpa, I find definitely strange that the Karmapa is assimilated to Sangha
The point being simply that two different set of things are mixed here:
- the three jewels that are the places (yul) of refuge
- the three support (rten) of the three bodies (mind, speech, body) of the Buddha that are to be present in formal sitting (see above)

I agree with Malcolm that (in the present case) the Karmapa image, if he is your root teacher, is enough, without futher elaborations
Regards
If the Karmapa is a practicing Buddhist, then he’s sangha. If you see him as the Buddha, that’s not a conflict. You should see every being as Buddha.
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Personally I'd say having a statue/picture of Buddha Shakyamuni on the altar is enough and the only required thing there. It is always good to remind yourself thanks to whom we all have this opportunity.

There is a nice perk of having some texts there too. Some sutras especially are said to provide a lot of benefits if prostrated and offered to.

As Malcolm said the 8 offerings are old Indian custom of welcoming important people. And while that might feel foreign at first, after realizing that it is a way to honor important guests it makes the whole offering more meaningful to me. There is a nice symbolism, each offering remind you of some aspects of dharma, etc. So if that can be done, it is perfect.

However, on a daily basis I just stick to water, candle and incense. And whenever I can or feel like it I offer flowers.

These are my few cents. Sorry to dilute your convo, guys. :D
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nyonchung
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by nyonchung »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:58 pm
If the Karmapa is a practicing Buddhist, then he’s sangha. If you see him as the Buddha, that’s not a conflict. You should see every being as Buddha.
Possibly you mix up a number of things and different level dof practice. A "practicing Buddhist" cannot be "the sangha" by himself (in old days, a minimum of seven fully ordained monks was needed for the sangha to be actually present), and the point is that regarding shrines, temples, etc. the support of offerings (the subject here) are technically reprentations of the body, speech and mind (nirmana-, sambogha- and dharma-kaya) of the Buddha
A Buddha statue in this case represents the body
Eventhough if, when in front of the three, you'll recite the ordinary refuge into the three Jewels, and if a karma-kagyüpa, adding the three roots, who are not represented ...
There is a beautiful formula by Thangtong Gyelpo adding one's own mind recognized as Dharmakaya to these six (but it's a shangpa one)

To sum it up, by your logic:

Supports = Objects of refuge
Buddha/ Body = Buddha
Text / Speech = Dharma
Stupa / Mind = Sangha

they are distinct series as you can see, and they dont correlate, the Sangha (how respectable it might be) in not Buddha's mind (aka. Dharmakya)

Last, if you actually see every being as Buddha, congratulations, no need shrines anymore :sage: but what does "Buddha" means here actually?
Let's stop here, since we go that way we'll end up in an endless buddha-nature thread ... Dharmawheel archives full of them

Whatever way you arrange your shrine, it has anyway to be pleasant to you
But Godzilla? :namaste:

To Könchok Thrinley
The eight offerings are generally recommanded with yidam practice
You can put actual incense powder, flowers, perfume, food, music etc. but it is said that Atisha told that since Tibet's water was pure and clean, all offering could be represented by water
What for French water? , I suddenly have a doubt :o

Note that rich Tibetan families kept (some still have) a permanent monk at their family shrine
Sherpas regularly (according to their means) invite ngagpas or monks to perform rituals - in particular reading texts - and this is true of most Himalayan Buddhist people, but this another way of life
Another use of shrineroom's use is that of guest romm (specially for travelling monks)
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tradition-specific Altar Accoutrement

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:07 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:58 pm
If the Karmapa is a practicing Buddhist, then he’s sangha. If you see him as the Buddha, that’s not a conflict. You should see every being as Buddha.
Possibly you mix up a number of things and different level of practice. A "practicing Buddhist" cannot be "the sangha" by himself
What is gained by complicating things?
An image of the Karmapa, HH Dalai Lama, a refuge tree image, or even a group photo of monks or nuns can function as representation of “Sangha” on an altar. Unlike with a functioning sangha, don’t need a minimum number of images. It’s not like they need to call a vote on whether your water bowls are acceptable or not.

Again, what difference does it make?
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