Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

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Minobu
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Also from the view of Nichiren , i think people focus far too much on his trying to convey that the Buddha reveals in the Lotus when He actually did attain awakening. the line "I have not yet revealed the truth"...overused in modern day by fanatical myopic thinking


Nichiren had to get his point across at the time for other reasons..to show where the High Priests were going wrong...and if He could do that...then in future we could see that all is not what it seems to be...

this is hard when one is hard wired to polemics..as i'm learning.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:49 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...

This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...

it'sa beautiful...mia amore !

i'm freaking high on this stuff...
Tathāgatagarbha is luminosity.
ok before i jump to conclusions...

does this not produce ...or influence something to produce...

or am i going off the rails?
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by LastLegend »

The poor man is us...the Rich man is Buddha...because we don’t realize we are rich. Though for the Treasure Tower to arise, we have to fully awaken to Buddha nature....I don’t think this is can be comprised.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Minobu »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:49 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...

This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...

it'sa beautiful...mia amore !

i'm freaking high on this stuff...
Tathāgatagarbha is luminosity.
yeah i know that now...thats why i'm like so high...not on luminosity but because i was wrong...
but then again i am high on luminosity...
last night for the first time ever the tea bag sunk to the bottom of the cup and brewed without me having to use a spoon to get a strong cuppa...

i thought maybe i am onto something here...not that everything works out but maybe you get to produce more purely...
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by LastLegend »

We share similar illnesses: lack of aspiration and falling back. The Journey isn’t easy. Self isn’t easy to transcend. Such attachment is unique to our experience.

Let’s me stop blah blah and heed my own. :lol:
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:31 pm As you know, I draw a sharp distinction between Buddhism (concepts) and Buddhadharma (realization through personal experience). But in any case, the Uttaratantra is pretty clear on this point. The Buddha is the ultimate refuge because the Buddha possesses the dharmakāya; and in that same text the dharmakāya is defined as the realization of the dharmadhātu, further defined as the clear light or luminous nature of the mind, the realization that is the basis upon which the Buddha then teaches the dharma.
I appreciate that. Respectfully, I think all of those points also lend themselves to another view that these things are not distinct. In that sense, they're like the side of the triangle. You can't take one part away without losing the triangle. Take away the Buddha, and of course the rest is not possible. But similarly, take away sentient beings, and what is Buddha? Sure we can posit some unconditioned reality, but what does that even mean? Its the same thing that is said about emptiness - there is no emptiness simpliciter; dharmas are empty.
Awakening is beyond thought and concepts. It can't truly be framed in concepts. Trying to frame awakening in concepts is like trying frame the taste of sugar in concepts to someone who has never tasted anything sweet. But if you have some sugar, you can easily say "Come and see what it tastes like yourself."
I get this, too. But like emptiness that is only the emptiness of dharmas, awakening is the awakening of sentient beings. Awakening by itself... well, nothing can be said about it.

The way I understand this is in terms of a concept of relative subtlety and absolute subtlety. Relative subtlety is the subtlety of a teaching in comparison to a relatively coarser teaching. A basic example is, Hinayana is subtle compared to non-Buddhist teachings, but coarse compared to Mahayana. On the path, there is a spectrum of refinement into subtler and subtler teachings. Then there is absolute subtlety that refers to the awakened state of Buddhahood. Of course, absolute subtlety has no conditions. But, it doesn't simply nullify the relative spectrum. In the view I've been taught, neither of these is a superior view, and rather they are coextensive, just as emptiness is coextensive with dharmas.
As for the Lotus itself, of course the Lotus presents the proper and correct explanation of the reality that is to be realized. But it is a very short passage in the text, and I never see it quoted in these discussions at all.
So, tell us about your Lotus Sutra.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by LastLegend »

The definitive meaning is: to become full Buddha one will need to do Bodhisattva work. So yes, the past Buddhas achieved full enlightenment this way. There can’t be any other other way. That’s Lotus Sutra. It’s called a Journey because there isn’t a jump. We can be stuck in emptiness of Nirvana. A dry no colorful not much there. Adorn Buddha-land mentioned in Lotus Sutra.
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:36 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pm In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.

Of course, also the Lanka has the same critique.

The Abhisamayalaṃkāra distinguishes the these three on the basis of what kind of all-knowledge each of the three possesses, because they are different. The reason it does so is that on the path, the bodhisattva must possess and surpass the all-knowledge of śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas, which they do by the tenth bhumi.
I respectfully disagree.

In the parable of the burning house, the ox cart given to all of the children is much more extravagant than the one promised. Later, even Maitreya is stumped by the Buddha's declaration that the bodhisattvas who emerged from the Earth were his disciples. Maitreya, and the rest of the bodhisattvas, perhaps with the exception of Manjusri, cannot understand how Shakyamuni could have taught all of these bodhisattvas in the 40 years since he awoke at Gaya. The Buddha then explains he awoke in the remote past. The point I take is that even the bodhisattva path the bodhisattvas thought they were on was incomplete.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:36 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pm In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.

Of course, also the Lanka has the same critique.

The Abhisamayalaṃkāra distinguishes the these three on the basis of what kind of all-knowledge each of the three possesses, because they are different. The reason it does so is that on the path, the bodhisattva must possess and surpass the all-knowledge of śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas, which they do by the tenth bhumi.
I respectfully disagree.

In the parable of the burning house, the ox cart given to all of the children is much more extravagant than the one promised.
Three carts are promised, representing the three gotras. Only one cart is given, since there is only one gotra.

But when we discuss the real meaning here, the real meaning is clarified in the Lanka-- those in the samadhi of cessation are roused by the Buddha, and they are placed on the bodhisattva path to complete buddhahood.
Later, even Maitreya is stumped by the Buddha's declaration that the bodhisattvas who emerged from the Earth were his disciples. Maitreya, and the rest of the bodhisattvas, perhaps with the exception of Manjusri, cannot understand how Shakyamuni could have taught all of these bodhisattvas in the 40 years since he awoke at Gaya.
I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.
The Buddha then explains he awoke in the remote past.
Which is a claim also made in the Avatamska Sūtra.
The point I take is that even the bodhisattva path the bodhisattvas thought they were on was incomplete.
Not possible.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by GrapeLover »

I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.
Bit like how Vimalakirti dances circles around Manjushri and all the rest in the VS, everyone serves their turn acting amazed for the sake of the lesson, Ha Ha!
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

GrapeLover wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:58 pm
I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.
Bit like how Vimalakirti dances circles around Manjushri and all the rest in the VS, everyone serves their turn acting amazed for the sake of the lesson, Ha Ha!
Pretty much. The Indian literary sensibility is interesting.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:48 pm But similarly, take away sentient beings, and what is Buddha?
Unnecessary.
In the view I've been taught, neither of these is a superior view, and rather they are coextensive, just as emptiness is coextensive with dharmas.
The relative truth is an error. It is false perception.

So, tell us about your Lotus Sutra.
Chapter 5 states it well:

“ ‘The one who knows that phenomena
Have the nature of dreams and illusions,
Are without an essence like a plantain tree
And are the same as echoes, {79}

“ ‘That one knows the nature
Of the entire three realms,
Has no bondage, is liberated,
And knows nirvāṇa. {80}

“ ‘All phenomena are empty and equal,
And their nature is without diversity or differentiation.
If that is not perceived,
There is no insight into any phenomenon. {81}

“ ‘The one with great wisdom sees
The entire dharmakāya.
There are no three yānas at all;
There is only the single yāna. {82}

“ ‘All phenomena are the same;
All are the same, always the same.
Knowing that, one knows
Nirvāṇa, deathlessness, and peace.’ ”




Chapter 13 also has a pretty good summary:

“When the stable ones do not entertain the notion of ‘woman,’
And do not have the concept of ‘man,’
Then, because all phenomena are unborn,
Upon seeking them they do not see them. {17}

“This practice that I have described
Is completely that of the bodhisattvas.
Listen to the explanation
Of that which is their field of activity. {18}

“These phenomena are declared nonexistent;
They are all unproduced and unborn.
They remain empty and motionless at all times:
That is what is called the field of activity of the wise. {19}

“Being and not being, existing and not existing:
These are fabrications of erroneous conceptualization.
Unborn phenomena that are also unoriginated
Are misconstrued to be born and existing. {20}

“With a one-pointed mind, always in meditation,
As completely stable as Mount Sumeru,
Stable in this way, they should view
All these phenomena as being like space. {21}

“They are always the same as space, without an essence,
Motionless and devoid of illusory thoughts.
This is the way phenomena are throughout time.
This is what is called the field of activity of the wise.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.
Of course its a literary device. You think this story really happened?

But to the point - of course we shouldn't read it literally.
At that moment, the bodhisattva mahāsattva Maitreya and hundreds of thousands of quintillions of other bodhisattvas, as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers, thought, “A great gathering of bodhisattvas, a great aggregation of bodhisattvas has emerged out from the ground, and standing before the Bhagavān has honored, revered, and pleased the Bhagavān. This is something we have never seen and never heard of before. Where did these bodhisattva mahāsattvas come from?”

The bodhisattva mahāsattva Maitreya was aware of his own doubt and uncertainty and knew in his own mind the thoughts that were in the minds of hundreds of thousands of quintillions of other bodhisattvas, as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers.
Of course, we shouldn't take a work of fiction as its written.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:03 pm The relative truth is an error. It is false perception.
That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that they can be upaya. Kind of the way the Lotus presents upaya. "He aint lyin!"
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:03 pm The relative truth is an error. It is false perception.
That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that they can be upaya. Kind of the way the Lotus presents upaya. "He aint lyin!"
Relative truth is a false perception. It is because beings have false perceptions that buddhas use skillful means. If beings did not have false perceptions, skillful means would be of no use.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.
So you say. Others say otherwise.

The problem with you is that you allow only your interpretation when that's actually not the case.

As long as you can move the goal posts wherever you feel appropriate, there is no point.

We've reached an impasse.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:38 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm

You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.
So you say. Others say otherwise.

The problem with you is that you allow only your interpretation when that's actually not the case.

As long as you can move the goal posts wherever you feel appropriate, there is no point.

We've reached an impasse.
I’m basing my understanding on the text and how it’s understood in the Indian tradition, in so far as that understanding is accessible through Indian references to text itself.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
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Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)

Post by Bristollad »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:38 pm Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.
So you say. Others say otherwise.
Which others say that there are four vehicles? The goal of the śrāvakas and the solitary realisers is Arhatship, the goal of the bodhisattvas is full awakening in order to help all sentient beings. What is this fourth vehicle? Who is it for and what is it’s fruit?
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Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:47 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:32 pm
When the LS says all Buddha achieve Buddhahood through it this could mean from the perspective of Shakyamuni's enlightenment.
The text does not say this.
Actually it does.

Now I have to give a some homage to Nichiren in regards to his commentary in regards to the LS. He says (I am paraphrasing heavily because I simply don't recall the exact verbiage) that the LS is filled with praise and sprinkled in are gems of truth.

One of those "gems of truth" is where Shakyamuni says "sometimes I speak from my own perspective, sometimes I speak from the perspective of others" I am paraphrasing again but would be more than glad to find the exact reference in multiple translations.

:anjali:
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