Yes - that thing the Buddha testified to.
Shall we go on like this?
Yes - that thing the Buddha testified to.
Yes, he testified, but no one actually heard him at the time. Even so, no one ought to just take the Buddha's word for it. This is why personal testimonial is not convincing. Seeing for oneself however, is certainty. The old goldsmith test, you gotta bite down on the coin.
Nicely written.Queequeg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.
I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"
Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
My dear friend I purposely strive not to doubt any of them (inclusive of QQ's declaration that everything is Upaya). Do not think my stance is obstinate as popularized in the Nichiren perspective.Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:10 pmCorrect. I am not evaluating this text based on how it was received and understood in China by the Tientai school. I am evaluating this text based on how it is cited and understood in India.tkp67 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:25 amYet your comparison is based on a juxtapose comparison of form not an evaluation based on how it was taught to be interpreted by the patriarchs of the EA lineage. I think it is fair to say the evaluation of Tibetan tantra practice by merely reading some tantra they find on their own would fall flat as well.
In general, based on the sheer number of Indian commentaries for it, the Perfection of Wisdom group of sutras is by far the most important group of sutras in India. Not only are there more commentaries on them, but the Perfection of Wisdom sutras are by far the largest group.
Further, you will find it said in the tantras that the only effective practice in this day and age is Vajrayana practice.
So, as usual, it all depends on who you are inclined to believe.
I like that.LastLegend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:51 am“becoming Buddha is Lotus Sutra.” The profound meaning is yet to be discovered.Queequeg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.
I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"
Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
He testified repeatedly. When he met the five ascetics at the Deer Park he told them he was awakened and that he could teach them. And then regularly after that. If the stories in the Tripitaka are to be relied upon.Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:50 pm Yes, he testified, but no one actually heard him at the time. Even so, no one ought to just take the Buddha's word for it. This is why personal testimonial is not convincing. Seeing for oneself however, is certainty. The old goldsmith test, you gotta bite down on the coin.
I think of the Lotus sutra as a thing unto itself.Queequeg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:43 pm The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.
I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"
Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.
That is where you actually are in the presence of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and the Lotus sutra[Asanga explains:] As such, the three examples of the buddha statue, honey, and the heart, from the perspective of the meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgata pervading all sentient beings, these sentient beings are called "possessors of the essence of the tathāgata." That sentient being who exists outside the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas does not exist in the realm of sentient beings at all.
careful what you say....recallthey don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere.
Its a rorschach. It employs certain literary devices that draw the reader/listener in. Whoever you are, as you are, you are on the path to Buddhahood! Its kind of magical, isn't it?
Takes a certain critical mass. IME, when beings drop the barriers, all kinds of weird and wonderful things start happening. The Merry Pranksters called those moments, "leaving the planet". The Lotus talks about a flying stupa surrounded by clouds of beings floating in the air. LOLThe ole Gakki days in the early seventies , no longer happens...those miracles everywhere in each and every district are long gone...they served their purpose and it's all over...
mumbling "Coca Cola" could work with the right intention framed by the right stories."Yes it worked" ...
That is true. Though the Lotus also starts with 5000 people who get up and leave when the Buddha says he is going to teach the Lotus. They probably could have done with a little less triumphalism in the text, but I think that's part of the upaya of the text - it was directed at a persecuted minority who probably needed a morale boost.careful what you say....recallthey don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere.
"If you tighten the string too tight it breaks , if you leave it too slack you get no sound"
slog on !
That's a good point.LastLegend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:56 pm Lotus Sutra says the path to Buddhahood is one has to conduct Bodhisattva work otherwise it’s considered personal salvation and self illumination.
“These people – both those in the stage of learning, and those beyond the stage of learning – thought that being detached from self-centered views and from dualistic views of existence and nonexistence meant achieving nirvana. Now here, in the presence of the World Honored One, they have heard what they never heard before, and all of them have fallen into doubt and confusion.
“How splendid it would be, O World Honored One, if you were to explain to the assembly the reasons [for what you have taught us today] and enable them to leave behind their doubts.”
The Buddha said to Shariputra: “Did I not say earlier that the enlightened ones explain the Teaching using all sorts of causes and conditions, metaphors and explanations, all sorts of terminology, all sorts of expedient means, all for the sake of ultimate perfect enlightenment? This is because all the explanations the enlightened ones give are to teach people how to be bodhisattvas.
As you know, I draw a sharp distinction between Buddhism (concepts) and Buddhadharma (realization through personal experience). But in any case, the Uttaratantra is pretty clear on this point. The Buddha is the ultimate refuge because the Buddha possesses the dharmakāya; and in that same text the dharmakāya is defined as the realization of the dharmadhātu, further defined as the clear light or luminous nature of the mind, the realization that is the basis upon which the Buddha then teaches the dharma.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:10 pm
We follow these instruction manuals because someone we attribute authority to say they work. Of course the ultimate test is whether there is actual proof in one's own experience. Saying Buddhism is exclusively this (awakening) or that (testimony), or depends on the primacy of this (Buddha) or that (Dharma), is a dead end sooner or later.
Awakening is beyond thought and concepts. It can't truly be framed in concepts. Trying to frame awakening in concepts is like trying frame the taste of sugar in concepts to someone who has never tasted anything sweet. But if you have some sugar, you can easily say "Come and see what it tastes like yourself."Because other than awakening itself, its all conceptual, but without the concepts framing awakening, there's no awakening. Strange how that is. Its like the impossibility of escaping the fact that a triangle has three sides and three corners.
That is referring to polemical assertions; not the experience of awakening itself.Bringing this back to the Lotus - one of the failures the text implicitly points out is when some teaching is followed to the exclusion of all else, saying, "This is True, everything else is false."
Buddhas know minds of sentient beings (specifically us) that we basically can’t deal with difficult Journey and often fall back. He says this is the only way to become a Full Buddha. Even for those achieving emptiness it’s not final.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pmThat's a good point.LastLegend wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:56 pm Lotus Sutra says the path to Buddhahood is one has to conduct Bodhisattva work otherwise it’s considered personal salvation and self illumination.
“These people – both those in the stage of learning, and those beyond the stage of learning – thought that being detached from self-centered views and from dualistic views of existence and nonexistence meant achieving nirvana. Now here, in the presence of the World Honored One, they have heard what they never heard before, and all of them have fallen into doubt and confusion.
“How splendid it would be, O World Honored One, if you were to explain to the assembly the reasons [for what you have taught us today] and enable them to leave behind their doubts.”
The Buddha said to Shariputra: “Did I not say earlier that the enlightened ones explain the Teaching using all sorts of causes and conditions, metaphors and explanations, all sorts of terminology, all sorts of expedient means, all for the sake of ultimate perfect enlightenment? This is because all the explanations the enlightened ones give are to teach people how to be bodhisattvas.
In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:20 pm In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.
Tathāgatagarbha is luminosity.Minobu wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...
This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...
it'sa beautiful...mia amore !
i'm freaking high on this stuff...
Something like that not sure the exact detail. Or how it works really.Minobu wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...
This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...
it'sa beautiful...mia amore !
i'm freaking high on this stuff...
yeah i know that now...thats why i'm like so high...not on luminosity but because i was wrong...Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:49 pmTathāgatagarbha is luminosity.Minobu wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...
This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...
it'sa beautiful...mia amore !
i'm freaking high on this stuff...