Tathagatagarbha

User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11687
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:46 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:01 pm These insights, the Threefold Inclusive Truth, apply equally to Myohorengekyo. The Saddharma is found in the dynamism of life. This is why Ichinen Sanzen starts with Mind. "Without mind that is the end of the matter. But if there is even the subtlest mind, then the three thousand." That's not the actual quote - its something along those lines.

When the mistake is made turning Buddhist Saddharma into a substantive thing that is somehow more fundamental than reality, that's no longer Buddhism. Its a wrong view. Its a matter of emphasis that when its drawn out puts a person in a very detrimental place - right back in the reifying of self and all that.
I mentioned the paraphrased in bold earlier in the thread.
But you misuse quotes all the time...
There is nothing substantive in cleaning the mirror for clear realization?
This is a metaphor. If you attach too much meaning to it, then yeah, I suppose it becomes a substantial thing. The point of this metaphor is (contrary to other things that have been asserted about what Nichiren taught) consistent with Mahayana teachings in general - that we are, in our nature as sentient beings, possessed of the qualities of a Buddha. However, we are afflicted with adventitious defilements. These defilements themselves are not substantial things that can be wiped away in the sense we wipe dirt off a mirror. They are merely mistaken or distorted views that arise because of... three poisons, attachments, etc. They don't actually have any substance anymore than a knot is anything substantial distinct from the tangled piece of string.

The Shoshu response is that "We are buddhas as we are because we embrace the Daimoku!" And yet, Nichiren talked about polishing mirrors and things like that. So either Nichiren didn't have his story straight, or people are misunderstanding him. Go figure.

There is a subtle line that both accepts universal buddhanature as well as the necessity of walking the path to Buddhahood. Its the fine line that enables Lotus Buddhists to embrace ignorance and awakening together. But its not easy to penetrate and grasp. Its difficult to believe and difficult to understand. Its why Zhiyi took 7 volumes to try and explain it and still left the work unfinished because its implicitly beyond description and must be known through practice. Its why Nichiren concluded - "Here, just embrace the Daimoku because as beings of Mappo, its too much for you to get. But if you make this connection, then you are assured the opportunities in the future - at the Eternal Eagle Peak (or whatever the happy hunting ground is)."
if liberation wasn't substantive why did the buddha dedicate his existence to it?
That's the point: Liberation is not a substantial thing. Its the unbinding and release of all substantial things. Its the substantial things, or more accurately the naive belief in substantial things, that form the walls and bars of the prison of samsara. The Buddha appears in response to beings tangled up in ignorance - to show them how to get untangled. Its not some life purpose the way SG talks about "mission" and all that. Buddhas effortlessly respond to suffering beings - why? To help them find release and to become equal to him. He wants us to find the sublime flavor of liberation, but its got as much intention as breathing - that's just what buddhas and bodhisattvas do. Buddhas are mere functions of ignorance - Buddhas appear because there are ignorant beings; ignorant beings are ignorant beings because buddhas demonstrate liberation from ignorance.
Notice what is substantive is the reality that consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning. This represents individual sentient beings, the ignorance of suffering which is the cause of buddhism.
No. The ten factors are also empty of substantial existence. These are distinctions the Buddha pointed out to help us see. They are substantial only in so far as they resonate with our ignorance as its cure.

Ignorance of suffering is not quite the problem. Suffering is the problem. Suffering has a cause. The cause is ignorance. The Buddhist path cuts off the cause.

If they weren't substantive even for a moment in time, even in light of impermanence, there would be not benefit to this cause.

If there is no benefit what is the purpose?

Unbreakable joy while it can't be put on a cup and sold in the deli is substantive enough for some. YMMV.
Indeed. Mileage varies. You misunderstand the basic teachings and so of course you misunderstand these teachings on the Sudden and Perfect.

The problem I always had with Nichiren Buddhism as it is taught, especially in the Shoshu and its offshoots like SG, is that the basic teachings are ignored. Have any of you actually been taught the Four Noble Truths? No. Because you wave it off as Hinayana. Have any of you actually been taught Madhyamaka? No. Because that's provisional Mahayana. Have any of you been taught anything about Tiantai? No, because that's Buddhism for the Middle Day. Have you been taught anything about Mikkyo, even though its blatantly obvious that the Gohonzon invokes Mikkyo in the way its constructed? No, because Nichiren criticized Mikkyo. So all you are taught really is Nembutsu - recollection of the Buddha. Which is fine - that is an excellent practice that is very easy to undertake. But then you have been taught this is all you need. Its a willful ignorance. This ignorance is justified by the triumphalist claim that those teachings have expired. Its preposterous.

Nichiren was extremely well learned, and his disciples were also well learned, familiar with the underlying teachings of Buddhism. So when he was writing, he was writing to people who shared a common body of learning. These days, people pick up Nichiren's writings and without any significant learning of basic Buddhism, think they can interpret this stuff and derive a correct understanding of it. I'm not claiming any such understanding, but I at least know, I have a whole lot more learning to do.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

really enjoying this...learning so much...

but the whole happy hunting ground ceremony in the air thing has me a lil confused.

i get the whole concept of dying and going to some happy place forever ..just chant and bam your enlightened right there on your deathbed..

even if thats true...why bother...it goes against the grain of being a Bodhisattva. We are supposed to love suffering along with the all the shrubs who don't care, so eventually they do care and take up the Banner.

Ceremony in the air is something that happened, i believe...a real mystical thing ...but it did not happen in a pure land...it happened in Samsara.

by the Buddha's power. A Total Buddha thing.

but then the whole see you on Eagle Peak...

maybe that's a metaphor for see ya when ya get it...you will know, i know you got it ,and everyone that finally got it, and hasn't yet ...sort of thing...

it's like finally dipping into one the Buddha wells when you are developed ..

anyway..besides that i'm good to go now that i see a few more things a lil bit more clearly....

great stuff..
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2414
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:46 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:01 pm These insights, the Threefold Inclusive Truth, apply equally to Myohorengekyo. The Saddharma is found in the dynamism of life. This is why Ichinen Sanzen starts with Mind. "Without mind that is the end of the matter. But if there is even the subtlest mind, then the three thousand." That's not the actual quote - its something along those lines.

When the mistake is made turning Buddhist Saddharma into a substantive thing that is somehow more fundamental than reality, that's no longer Buddhism. Its a wrong view. Its a matter of emphasis that when its drawn out puts a person in a very detrimental place - right back in the reifying of self and all that.
I mentioned the paraphrased in bold earlier in the thread.
But you misuse quotes all the time...
There is nothing substantive in cleaning the mirror for clear realization?
This is a metaphor. If you attach too much meaning to it, then yeah, I suppose it becomes a substantial thing. The point of this metaphor is (contrary to other things that have been asserted about what Nichiren taught) consistent with Mahayana teachings in general - that we are, in our nature as sentient beings, possessed of the qualities of a Buddha. However, we are afflicted with adventitious defilements. These defilements themselves are not substantial things that can be wiped away in the sense we wipe dirt off a mirror. They are merely mistaken or distorted views that arise because of... three poisons, attachments, etc. They don't actually have any substance anymore than a knot is anything substantial distinct from the tangled piece of string.

The Shoshu response is that "We are buddhas as we are because we embrace the Daimoku!" And yet, Nichiren talked about polishing mirrors and things like that. So either Nichiren didn't have his story straight, or people are misunderstanding him. Go figure.

There is a subtle line that both accepts universal buddhanature as well as the necessity of walking the path to Buddhahood. Its the fine line that enables Lotus Buddhists to embrace ignorance and awakening together. But its not easy to penetrate and grasp. Its difficult to believe and difficult to understand. Its why Zhiyi took 7 volumes to try and explain it and still left the work unfinished because its implicitly beyond description and must be known through practice. Its why Nichiren concluded - "Here, just embrace the Daimoku because as beings of Mappo, its too much for you to get. But if you make this connection, then you are assured the opportunities in the future - at the Eternal Eagle Peak (or whatever the happy hunting ground is)."
if liberation wasn't substantive why did the buddha dedicate his existence to it?
That's the point: Liberation is not a substantial thing. Its the unbinding and release of all substantial things. Its the substantial things, or more accurately the naive belief in substantial things, that form the walls and bars of the prison of samsara. The Buddha appears in response to beings tangled up in ignorance - to show them how to get untangled. Its not some life purpose the way SG talks about "mission" and all that. Buddhas effortlessly respond to suffering beings - why? To help them find release and to become equal to him. He wants us to find the sublime flavor of liberation, but its got as much intention as breathing - that's just what buddhas and bodhisattvas do. Buddhas are mere functions of ignorance - Buddhas appear because there are ignorant beings; ignorant beings are ignorant beings because buddhas demonstrate liberation from ignorance.
Notice what is substantive is the reality that consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning. This represents individual sentient beings, the ignorance of suffering which is the cause of buddhism.
No. The ten factors are also empty of substantial existence. These are distinctions the Buddha pointed out to help us see. They are substantial only in so far as they resonate with our ignorance as its cure.

Ignorance of suffering is not quite the problem. Suffering is the problem. Suffering has a cause. The cause is ignorance. The Buddhist path cuts off the cause.

If they weren't substantive even for a moment in time, even in light of impermanence, there would be not benefit to this cause.

If there is no benefit what is the purpose?

Unbreakable joy while it can't be put on a cup and sold in the deli is substantive enough for some. YMMV.
Indeed. Mileage varies. You misunderstand the basic teachings and so of course you misunderstand these teachings on the Sudden and Perfect.

The problem I always had with Nichiren Buddhism as it is taught, especially in the Shoshu and its offshoots like SG, is that the basic teachings are ignored. Have any of you actually been taught the Four Noble Truths? No. Because you wave it off as Hinayana. Have any of you actually been taught Madhyamaka? No. Because that's provisional Mahayana. Have any of you been taught anything about Tiantai? No, because that's Buddhism for the Middle Day. Have you been taught anything about Mikkyo, even though its blatantly obvious that the Gohonzon invokes Mikkyo in the way its constructed? No, because Nichiren criticized Mikkyo. So all you are taught really is Nembutsu - recollection of the Buddha. Which is fine - that is an excellent practice that is very easy to undertake. But then you have been taught this is all you need. Its a willful ignorance. This ignorance is justified by the triumphalist claim that those teachings have expired. Its preposterous.

Nichiren was extremely well learned, and his disciples were also well learned, familiar with the underlying teachings of Buddhism. So when he was writing, he was writing to people who shared a common body of learning. These days, people pick up Nichiren's writings and without any significant learning of basic Buddhism, think they can interpret this stuff and derive a correct understanding of it. I'm not claiming any such understanding, but I at least know, I have a whole lot more learning to do.
Everything you are saying is simply incorrect.

First response is a straw man .. "but you misquote too". I am not as easy as the American public to assuage with such dialog. I get you don't appreciate my views but I don't get the denigration of response tbh.

The next argument about a metaphor and attachment thereof. These are pointers and you know this. Why am I so certain? Because I 'learned it from you reading your posts. However It is a straw man argument because it denies the dynamic because of the metaphor. Then you go into a dialog about subtly, nuance and study are required to understand this Buddhism. This against the teachings of Nichiren which I can provide citations. However this is not to say Nichiren didn't account for this type of mind with equanimity. To be clear I am saying his teachings accord to cause, capacity and condition.

Before I get to your third response I want to comment on a cause and condition that most certainly facilitates practice outside the auspice of subtle nuance that marks all true buddha. This cause and condition is human suffering. Now I appreciate many people rather get acclimated to the water when they live lives of virtue and prestige in the degenerate age. I really do. I believe it to be a true expression of equanimity that atheist and theist, the well to do and the austere, the hedonist and ascetic alike have paths that appeal to them. I believe it the true equanimity of Nichiren to incorporate it into a single mantra vehicle without distinction between practitioners. But let me be clear on one thing. There is enough suffering the in the world to act as a cause that can quickly build practice. Not many people seem keen on experiencing suffering in the process of eliminating it. This is why Nichiren is clear about it being a powerful cause/condition in understanding this teaching. Honest to my word I repeat I don't know if I would ever willing choose to know suffering if I wasn't exposed to it as I was. I didn't have a choice in understanding the mind. As I saw it so much of these teachings seeming common sense in regards to the human condition until I realized I was a real minority in this thinking.

To third point every teaching of buddha is pointed to in the writings and the lotus and Nichiren suggests if one has the capacity they should study all sutras as well as non Buddhist teachings. These are documented well and can be taught from the lotus as proof. There is a seemingly impossible proposition in all of this as there is built into much of the lotus and his writings. They purposely pose conceptualization that gives rise to cognitive dissonance (cause by duality). The answer is never this or that but always the middle way as if it was an algorithm.

If I understand Nichiren's intention he knew these teachings in the later day would include even a greater body of work to be studied making it an impossible proposition at some point. This requires a sum is greater than the whole of its parts methodology to keep the cannon of teachings understandable. This leads into the bodhisattva of the earth and kosen-rufu. This would represent people of various different physical provinces with relative provincial practices for the purpose of completing understanding among the teachings. Why? because in doing so all province and provisional teachings are reconciled to the one true buddha vehicle. It is through this collective and dynamic the provisional is reconciled to the true and the lotus that is Shakyamuni's life honored because it was his wish all sentient beings be liberated. Thus this is the way to pay one's debt to the buddha of the three times and ten directions.

I don't want to go to far into dialog but there is so much I can say about every point but I am not trying to sell you, argue against you or outwardly correct you.I just can't grasp the assertion of Zhiyi who lived 800 years prior whose teachings did not save Japan as Nichiren's did as a superior means. Personally preferred? sure I can appreciate that. Superior practice?

Carl Sagan has an excellent article on rules for critical thinking. The one about occam's razor comes to mind.

I hope this finds you well.

:anjali:
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11687
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:14 am Everything you are saying is simply incorrect.

...Why am I so certain? Because I 'learned it from you reading your posts.
You better make up your mind.

First response is a straw man .. "but you misquote too". I am not as easy as the American public to assuage with such dialog. I get you don't appreciate my views but I don't get the denigration of response tbh.
To the extent I can decipher what you're saying, I don't agree with you. Appreciation or no appreciation has nothing to do with it.
The next argument about a metaphor and attachment thereof. These are pointers and you know this.


In your view, what's the difference between the application of a metaphor and a pointer? I don't understand what you're arguing about. Of course I know this - because the metaphor is used to point something out, in this case, the practice of removing defilements. Are you really disputing the problems that come with getting attached to the metaphor?
However It is a straw man argument because it denies the dynamic because of the metaphor.


What?
Then you go into a dialog about subtly, nuance and study are required to understand this Buddhism. This against the teachings of Nichiren which I can provide citations.
In this letter, I have written my most important teachings. Grasp their meaning firmly, and make them a part of your life. Believe in the Gohonzon, the supreme object of devotion in all of Jambudvīpa. Be sure to strengthen your faith, and receive the protection of Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions. Exert yourself in the two ways of practice and study. Without practice and study, there can be no Buddhism. You must not only persevere yourself; you must also teach others. Both practice and study arise from faith. Teach others to the best of your ability, even if it is only a single sentence or phrase. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Shohojissosho
Before I get to your third response I want to comment on a cause and condition that most certainly facilitates practice outside the auspice of subtle nuance that marks all true buddha. This cause and condition is human suffering.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Suffering is the mark of an ordinary, unenlightened, sentient being, for sure. In Shoshu terminology, ordinary beings are thought to be "true buddha." I'm not sure that view is shared by other Nichiren lineages. But, buddhas are not marked by suffering.
Now I appreciate many people rather get acclimated to the water when they live lives of virtue and prestige in the degenerate age. I really do. I believe it to be a true expression of equanimity that atheist and theist, the well to do and the austere, the hedonist and ascetic alike have paths that appeal to them. I believe it the true equanimity of Nichiren to incorporate it into a single mantra vehicle without distinction between practitioners. But let me be clear on one thing. There is enough suffering the in the world to act as a cause that can quickly build practice. Not many people seem keen on experiencing suffering in the process of eliminating it. This is why Nichiren is clear about it being a powerful cause/condition in understanding this teaching. Honest to my word I repeat I don't know if I would ever willing choose to know suffering if I wasn't exposed to it as I was. I didn't have a choice in understanding the mind. As I saw it so much of these teachings seeming common sense in regards to the human condition until I realized I was a real minority in this thinking.


Your testimony aside... Suffering and the escape from suffering is the central problem Shakyamuni resolved, and is the problem he taught others how to resolve. I'm not sure what profound statement you are trying to make.

I think if you had more familiarity with Buddhism in general, you might find a little more context for suffering being the central problem in Buddhism, and that it frames the endeavor of all Buddhist practitioners - Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana, whateveryana. To paraphrase Nichiren, the man is great because the teaching is great. Nichiren was a learned Buddhist teacher. Most of what he taught is Mahayana. His special teaching was the Daimoku.
To third point every teaching of buddha is pointed to in the writings and the lotus and Nichiren suggests if one has the capacity they should study all sutras as well as non Buddhist teachings.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I am clarifying - in my experience, teaching of Buddhism in Nichiren traditions is very narrow. The Buddhist education they offer, at least to lay people, is very narrow. The priestly education just seems like talmudic investigation of Nichiren's writings at best. I suspect this has to do with the decline of Buddhism in Japan in general. Its a shame.

I don't have the energy to decipher and address the rest of your points.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2414
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

None of what I stated was testimony but straight from the writings. You need not accept my dissemination merely address facets that never made sense to you and ask for citations.

Most of what you said is not answerable which I believe to be unreasonable. It doesn't challenge any of my statements with sutra or commentary just opinion and not even in the tradition this sub forum is dedicated to. This is the same tactic politicians use to keep from acquiescing ascertations their opponents make that are true. This keeps them from ever getting credence. I won't assume this is on purpose. The trappings being ordinary human we all share alike.

I can give citation and lotus basis for everything I say. I practice according to the proofs of this tradition. If you have something other than a personal attack on my character intended or not please feel free to offer something of substance. All your dialog is opinion without any reference to the lotus as required by the four reliance.

As far as the use of pointers? The true aspect is only understood by buddha means it isn't articulated verbally and I believe you know this based on many posts made stating as much. Do I need to find them for reference? would this help you?

I am in your service, just ask. Assuming however. It will only continue to prove futile.
illarraza
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by illarraza »

Some maintain that the Eternal Buddha is Namu Myoho renge kyo and others assert that the Eternal Buddha is Nichiren. Today we are discussing Tathāgatagarbha. Simply, it is the essence or entity of all phenomena and noumena, it is Namu Myoho renge kyo.

The best example of phenomena and noumena is John Doe person. Phenomena is how we perceive John Doe and Noumena is how John Doe really is. Phenomena is the relative John Doe and Noumena is the absolute John Doe. Only Buddhas and votaries of the Lotus Sutra can perfectly perceive the relative and absolute reality of things. Nichiren teaches:

"Within the minds of all human beings, there exist the three categories of illusions of thought and desire, of illusions innumerable as particles of dust and sand, and of illusions about the true nature of existence, as well as karma created by the ten evil acts or the five cardinal sins—all of which are like a dark night. The Flower Garland and the other various sutras are like stars in this dark night, while the Lotus Sutra is like the moon. For those who have faith in the Lotus Sutra, but whose faith is not deep, it is as though a half moon were lighting the darkness. But for those who have profound faith, it is as though a full moon were illuminating the night." - The Essence of the Medicine King Chapter of the Lotus Sutra

and in his most important writing, The Object of Devotion for Observing the Mind, he writes:

"Question: Shakyamuni, the lord of teachings, is the Buddha who has completely destroyed the three categories of illusion*. He is the sovereign of all rulers, bodhisattvas, persons of the two vehicles, human and heavenly beings, and others in the ten directions. Whenever the Buddha moves, Brahmā attends him on the left and Shakra on the right. The four kinds of Buddhists and the eight kinds of nonhuman beings follow behind, while the vajra-bearing gods march in the vanguard. With his eighty thousand teachings he leads all living beings to emancipation. How could a Buddha such as this dwell in the hearts of us ordinary people?

Nichiren goes on, a bit further to explain:

"Now, the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra says that Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, attained Buddhahood numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago, and that the cause that made this possible was the practice he had carried out at that time. Since then he has manifested emanation bodies throughout the worlds of the ten directions and preached all the sacred teachings of his lifetime to teach and convert people as numerous as the dust particles of the land. When we compare the number of disciples in the essential teaching with that of disciples in the theoretical teaching, the former is like the ocean, and the latter, like a drop of water, or the one, like a great mountain, and the other, like a speck of dust. What is more, a bodhisattva of the essential teaching is far superior to any bodhisattva of the theoretical teaching, including Manjushrī, Perceiver of the World’s Sounds, or any of the others who gathered from the worlds in the ten directions. The difference between them is even greater than that between Shakra and a monkey. Are you saying that besides these bodhisattvas, the persons of the two vehicles who obtained their enlightenment by destroying their illusions, Brahmā, Shakra, the gods of the sun and moon, the four heavenly kings, the four wheel-turning kings, and the immense flames of the great citadel of the hell of incessant suffering—all beings and all things in the ten directions are inherent in the Ten Worlds and in the three thousand realms of our own lives.."

* Three categories of illusions: (1) illusions of thought and desire (the former are distorted perceptions of the truth, while the latter refer to base inclinations such as greed and anger); (2) illusions innumerable as particles of dust and sand, which arise when bodhisattvas try to master innumerable teachings in order to save others; and (3) illusions about the true nature of existence.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

is there a reason you refer to MyoHo RenGe Kyo with namu ...namu is the action of taking refuge ..it is not the Dharma..the Dharma in this case is strictly speaking is MyoHo RenGe Kyo...so like you end up confusing the issue ..a most important one with adding Namu people think that is the dharma...where it is the Dharmic Practice.
illarraza
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:26 am
tkp67 wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:14 am Everything you are saying is simply incorrect.

...Why am I so certain? Because I 'learned it from you reading your posts.
You better make up your mind.

First response is a straw man .. "but you misquote too". I am not as easy as the American public to assuage with such dialog. I get you don't appreciate my views but I don't get the denigration of response tbh.
To the extent I can decipher what you're saying, I don't agree with you. Appreciation or no appreciation has nothing to do with it.
The next argument about a metaphor and attachment thereof. These are pointers and you know this.


In your view, what's the difference between the application of a metaphor and a pointer? I don't understand what you're arguing about. Of course I know this - because the metaphor is used to point something out, in this case, the practice of removing defilements. Are you really disputing the problems that come with getting attached to the metaphor?
However It is a straw man argument because it denies the dynamic because of the metaphor.


What?
Then you go into a dialog about subtly, nuance and study are required to understand this Buddhism. This against the teachings of Nichiren which I can provide citations.
In this letter, I have written my most important teachings. Grasp their meaning firmly, and make them a part of your life. Believe in the Gohonzon, the supreme object of devotion in all of Jambudvīpa. Be sure to strengthen your faith, and receive the protection of Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions. Exert yourself in the two ways of practice and study. Without practice and study, there can be no Buddhism. You must not only persevere yourself; you must also teach others. Both practice and study arise from faith. Teach others to the best of your ability, even if it is only a single sentence or phrase. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Shohojissosho
Before I get to your third response I want to comment on a cause and condition that most certainly facilitates practice outside the auspice of subtle nuance that marks all true buddha. This cause and condition is human suffering.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Suffering is the mark of an ordinary, unenlightened, sentient being, for sure. In Shoshu terminology, ordinary beings are thought to be "true buddha." I'm not sure that view is shared by other Nichiren lineages. But, buddhas are not marked by suffering.
Now I appreciate many people rather get acclimated to the water when they live lives of virtue and prestige in the degenerate age. I really do. I believe it to be a true expression of equanimity that atheist and theist, the well to do and the austere, the hedonist and ascetic alike have paths that appeal to them. I believe it the true equanimity of Nichiren to incorporate it into a single mantra vehicle without distinction between practitioners. But let me be clear on one thing. There is enough suffering the in the world to act as a cause that can quickly build practice. Not many people seem keen on experiencing suffering in the process of eliminating it. This is why Nichiren is clear about it being a powerful cause/condition in understanding this teaching. Honest to my word I repeat I don't know if I would ever willing choose to know suffering if I wasn't exposed to it as I was. I didn't have a choice in understanding the mind. As I saw it so much of these teachings seeming common sense in regards to the human condition until I realized I was a real minority in this thinking.


Your testimony aside... Suffering and the escape from suffering is the central problem Shakyamuni resolved, and is the problem he taught others how to resolve. I'm not sure what profound statement you are trying to make.

I think if you had more familiarity with Buddhism in general, you might find a little more context for suffering being the central problem in Buddhism, and that it frames the endeavor of all Buddhist practitioners - Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana, whateveryana. To paraphrase Nichiren, the man is great because the teaching is great. Nichiren was a learned Buddhist teacher. Most of what he taught is Mahayana. His special teaching was the Daimoku.
To third point every teaching of buddha is pointed to in the writings and the lotus and Nichiren suggests if one has the capacity they should study all sutras as well as non Buddhist teachings.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I am clarifying - in my experience, teaching of Buddhism in Nichiren traditions is very narrow. The Buddhist education they offer, at least to lay people, is very narrow. The priestly education just seems like talmudic investigation of Nichiren's writings at best. I suspect this has to do with the decline of Buddhism in Japan in general. Its a shame.

I don't have the energy to decipher and address the rest of your points.
It would seem that QQ was correct, were the following passage translated by Inagaki correct:

"In suffering, awake to the nature of suffering; in joy rejoice. Realizing both suffering and joy as they really are [tathata], chant the Namu Myoho renge kyo of the Lotus." -- Happiness in This World translated by Inagaki

One would have to agree with Tkp67 were the following passage from Nichiren translated by SGI correct

"Suffer what there is to suffer. Enjoy what there is to enjoy. Regard both suffering and joy as facts of life and continue to chant Namu Myoho renge kyo." -- Happiness in this World translated by SGI

"After Shakyamuni passed into nirvana, among the twenty-four scholars of India who successively inherited the lineage of his teaching, or the other great incarnations of Buddhas or bodhisattvas who appeared in the world to spread the doctrine there, or among the teachers of China, the teachers of the seven schools of the north and the three schools of the south, or among the founders of the Three Treatises school and the Dharma Characteristics school, there were none other than the proponents of the T’ien-t’ai school who taught the doctrine of the mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the hundred worlds and thousand factors, and the three thousand realms in a single moment of life.

If the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life is not propounded, then there is no way to account for the principle of inherent evil in the nature of the Buddha. And if the principle of inherent evil is not accepted, this means that the Buddhas and bodhisattvas who universally manifest material bodies, as well as the five hundred and seven hundred honored ones depicted in the mandalas of the two realms of the True Word teaching, are temporary beings existing only in the present, their original state unknown. This is the same as the view expounded by the non-Buddhist teachers." -- From Examining the True Word School

"Myō means perfect endowment. Six refers to the six pāramitās representing all the ten thousand practices. When people ask to hear the teaching of perfect endowment, they are asking how they may gain the perfect endowment of the six pāramitās and ten thousand practices of the bodhisattvas. In the phrase “perfect endowment,” endowment refers to the mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, while perfect means that, since there is mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, then any one world contains all the other worlds, indicating that this is “perfect.” The Lotus Sutra is a single work consisting of eight volumes, twenty-eight chapters, and 69,384 characters. Each and every character is endowed with the character myō, each being a Buddha who has the thirty-two features and eighty characteristics. Each of the Ten Worlds manifests its own Buddhahood. As Miao-lo writes, “Since even Buddhahood is present in all living beings, then all the other worlds are of course present, too.”

The meaning of crossing the sea of suffering, in light of the Lotus Sutra, means that even in the throws of the pain of illness (Hell), Buddhas habitually and prodigiously returns to the World of Buddhahood including at the moment of death and thereafter. They are Buddhas in life, Buddhas in death, and Buddhas even when they transiently experience the World of Hell (the pain of illness) or any other World. The totality of the Buddha's life is always Buddha but the Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds and Ichinen Sanzen (Three Thousand Worlds in a Moment of Existence) is always operational. Also, the fact that someone in the World of Hell can become Buddha by chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo too is proof of the the theory of Ichinen Sanzen. It is not the complete eradication of evil (the sufferings within the Three or Four Lower Worlds). it is the totality of a Buddha's life not the transience of suffering. Suffering is transient. Buddhahood is eternal..

In conclusion, the complete end of suffering would seem a provisional view in light of Ichinen Sanzen and Nichiren's teachings. Since I'm not a Buddha, as far as I can tell, there is not even a complete end to craving because this Bodhisattva of the Earth, gets hungry. Then again, after I eat, I/m no longer hungry and all craving ceases. Perhaps both QQ and tkp67 are both right, at least about suffering.
illarraza
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:55 pm is there a reason you refer to MyoHo RenGe Kyo with namu ...namu is the action of taking refuge ..it is not the Dharma..the Dharma in this case is strictly speaking is MyoHo RenGe Kyo...so like you end up confusing the issue ..a most important one with adding Namu people think that is the dharma...where it is the Dharmic Practice.
I believe Nichiren teaches five or seven characters.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

illarraza wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:41 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:55 pm is there a reason you refer to MyoHo RenGe Kyo with namu ...namu is the action of taking refuge ..it is not the Dharma..the Dharma in this case is strictly speaking is MyoHo RenGe Kyo...so like you end up confusing the issue ..a most important one with adding Namu people think that is the dharma...where it is the Dharmic Practice.
I believe Nichiren teaches five or seven characters.
yes thats why i wonder why the importance of chanting namu instead of just nam..

i do the namu thing three times for my gongyo prayers and to begin recital of Lotus Sutra.
illarraza
Posts: 1020
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:46 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:01 pm These insights, the Threefold Inclusive Truth, apply equally to Myohorengekyo. The Saddharma is found in the dynamism of life. This is why Ichinen Sanzen starts with Mind. "Without mind that is the end of the matter. But if there is even the subtlest mind, then the three thousand." That's not the actual quote - its something along those lines.

When the mistake is made turning Buddhist Saddharma into a substantive thing that is somehow more fundamental than reality, that's no longer Buddhism. Its a wrong view. Its a matter of emphasis that when its drawn out puts a person in a very detrimental place - right back in the reifying of self and all that.
I mentioned the paraphrased in bold earlier in the thread.
But you misuse quotes all the time...
There is nothing substantive in cleaning the mirror for clear realization?
This is a metaphor. If you attach too much meaning to it, then yeah, I suppose it becomes a substantial thing. The point of this metaphor is (contrary to other things that have been asserted about what Nichiren taught) consistent with Mahayana teachings in general - that we are, in our nature as sentient beings, possessed of the qualities of a Buddha. However, we are afflicted with adventitious defilements. These defilements themselves are not substantial things that can be wiped away in the sense we wipe dirt off a mirror. They are merely mistaken or distorted views that arise because of... three poisons, attachments, etc. They don't actually have any substance anymore than a knot is anything substantial distinct from the tangled piece of string.

The Shoshu response is that "We are buddhas as we are because we embrace the Daimoku!" And yet, Nichiren talked about polishing mirrors and things like that. So either Nichiren didn't have his story straight, or people are misunderstanding him. Go figure.

There is a subtle line that both accepts universal buddhanature as well as the necessity of walking the path to Buddhahood. Its the fine line that enables Lotus Buddhists to embrace ignorance and awakening together. But its not easy to penetrate and grasp. Its difficult to believe and difficult to understand. Its why Zhiyi took 7 volumes to try and explain it and still left the work unfinished because its implicitly beyond description and must be known through practice. Its why Nichiren concluded - "Here, just embrace the Daimoku because as beings of Mappo, its too much for you to get. But if you make this connection, then you are assured the opportunities in the future - at the Eternal Eagle Peak (or whatever the happy hunting ground is)."
if liberation wasn't substantive why did the buddha dedicate his existence to it?
That's the point: Liberation is not a substantial thing. Its the unbinding and release of all substantial things. Its the substantial things, or more accurately the naive belief in substantial things, that form the walls and bars of the prison of samsara. The Buddha appears in response to beings tangled up in ignorance - to show them how to get untangled. Its not some life purpose the way SG talks about "mission" and all that. Buddhas effortlessly respond to suffering beings - why? To help them find release and to become equal to him. He wants us to find the sublime flavor of liberation, but its got as much intention as breathing - that's just what buddhas and bodhisattvas do. Buddhas are mere functions of ignorance - Buddhas appear because there are ignorant beings; ignorant beings are ignorant beings because buddhas demonstrate liberation from ignorance.
Notice what is substantive is the reality that consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning. This represents individual sentient beings, the ignorance of suffering which is the cause of buddhism.
No. The ten factors are also empty of substantial existence. These are distinctions the Buddha pointed out to help us see. They are substantial only in so far as they resonate with our ignorance as its cure.

Ignorance of suffering is not quite the problem. Suffering is the problem. Suffering has a cause. The cause is ignorance. The Buddhist path cuts off the cause.

If they weren't substantive even for a moment in time, even in light of impermanence, there would be not benefit to this cause.

If there is no benefit what is the purpose?

Unbreakable joy while it can't be put on a cup and sold in the deli is substantive enough for some. YMMV.
Indeed. Mileage varies. You misunderstand the basic teachings and so of course you misunderstand these teachings on the Sudden and Perfect.

The problem I always had with Nichiren Buddhism as it is taught, especially in the Shoshu and its offshoots like SG, is that the basic teachings are ignored. Have any of you actually been taught the Four Noble Truths? No. Because you wave it off as Hinayana. Have any of you actually been taught Madhyamaka? No. Because that's provisional Mahayana. Have any of you been taught anything about Tiantai? No, because that's Buddhism for the Middle Day. Have you been taught anything about Mikkyo, even though its blatantly obvious that the Gohonzon invokes Mikkyo in the way its constructed? No, because Nichiren criticized Mikkyo. So all you are taught really is Nembutsu - recollection of the Buddha. Which is fine - that is an excellent practice that is very easy to undertake. But then you have been taught this is all you need. Its a willful ignorance. This ignorance is justified by the triumphalist claim that those teachings have expired. Its preposterous.

Nichiren was extremely well learned, and his disciples were also well learned, familiar with the underlying teachings of Buddhism. So when he was writing, he was writing to people who shared a common body of learning. These days, people pick up Nichiren's writings and without any significant learning of basic Buddhism, think they can interpret this stuff and derive a correct understanding of it. I'm not claiming any such understanding, but I at least know, I have a whole lot more learning to do.
Excellent QQ. I would only add that we come to understand through practice AND faith. "Faith is first and foremost."

Mark
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11687
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:53 am In conclusion, the complete end of suffering would seem a provisional view in light of Ichinen Sanzen and Nichiren's teachings. Since I'm not a Buddha, as far as I can tell, there is not even a complete end to craving because this Bodhisattva of the Earth, gets hungry. Then again, after I eat, I/m no longer hungry and all craving ceases. Perhaps both QQ and tkp67 are both right, at least about suffering.
I generally agree. In the Lotus school teachings this is illustrated by the different understandings of the Four Noble Truths, depending on which level one considers it - There's the Hinayana/Tripitaka view in which suffering is considered real, and its end is considered real - this is the nirvana and parinirvana taught in the Tripitaka. Then there's the Provisional Mahayana view that suffering itself is empty and so is its release is in reality empty. Then the True Mahayana that considers both the Hinayana and Provisional Mahayana true depending on which mode one is engaged in - practice for others would involve the conditioned arising of suffering and its unbinding; practice for oneself would be the abiding in emptiness. Finally, in the perfect, the extremes are "destroyed" and Thusness (tathata) revealed. In this case, suffering and nirvana as a duality are merely thus; they neither arise nor are destroyed, but in themselves are both conditionally arisen and empty. This gets a little complicated with Nirvana because it by definition is unconditioned - this would be the true Nirvana. The nirvana that stands in contrast to suffering is a construct or sorts.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2414
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

“Good men, in the beginning I preached the four noble truths p.17for the sake of those who wished to become voice-hearers. At that time eight million heavenly beings came down to listen to the Law and conceived a desire for enlightenment. In the middle period in one place and another I expounded the profound teaching of the twelve-linked chain of causation for the sake of those who wished to become pratyekabuddhas, and immeasurable numbers of living beings conceived the desire for enlightenment or abided at the level of voice-hearers.
Immeasurable Meanings Sutra: 2 Preaching the Law

QQ and Mark This should dismisses your fears

Read the whole of the sutra as it will allow you to understand that the bodhisattva this sutra is meant to teach are not taught in the same manner.

Nichiren understood this and taught it as such.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4547
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I stumbled across this YouTube video in which I think is worth watching when one is trying to make clear what exactly is implied (if not actually meant) by the concept of “Buddha-nature” or tathagatagharba. The notion of tathagatagharba is regarded by many theravadins as nothing more than a different word for what is really a Hindu concept: atman.

I originally thought to share this link in a new thread, but perhaps it is important within this thread, to distinguish between what Buddha-nature is, and what it is not, and to discuss how and in what ways “original Buddha-nature” isn’t simply a recycled Vedic concept of an eternal self:



Following that, the various descriptions of Tathatagharbha cited here may also be useful to the reader:

https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

Please note: I’m not trying to make a presentation on comparative religious philosophies (that would have its place on a different forum). The speaker in the video linked above makes the point (correctly or not) that whatever is an object of awareness is not awareness itself, and describes the fundamental awareness (which he labels as atman) as being luminous and so on, which is precisely how Buddhists describe the original Buddha-mind of all beings.

If there are any scholars here who would like to elucidate on how and why the Buddhist notion of tathagatagharba is not the same as the Hindu notion of atman, now is your opportunity to do so.

...
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 pm I stumbled across this YouTube video in which I think is worth watching when one is trying to make clear what exactly is implied (if not actually meant) by the concept of “Buddha-nature” or tathagatagharba. The notion of tathagatagharba is regarded by many theravadins as nothing more than a different word for what is really a Hindu concept: atman.

I originally thought to share this link in a new thread, but perhaps it is important within this thread, to distinguish between what Buddha-nature is, and what it is not, and to discuss how and in what ways “original Buddha-nature” isn’t simply a recycled Vedic concept of an eternal self:



Following that, the various descriptions of Tathatagharbha cited here may also be useful to the reader:

https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

Please note: I’m not trying to make a presentation on comparative religious philosophies (that would have its place on a different forum). The speaker in the video linked above makes the point (correctly or not) that whatever is an object of awareness is not awareness itself, and describes the fundamental awareness (which he labels as atman) as being luminous and so on, which is precisely how Buddhists describe the original Buddha-mind of all beings.

If there are any scholars here who would like to elucidate on how and why the Buddhist notion of tathagatagharba is not the same as the Hindu notion of atman, now is your opportunity to do so.

...
don't think i can listen to this guy for 30 minutes.

in any case

the only real difference in modern hindus and Buddhist is the concept of Atman .

Atman describes an inherent transmigrating soul.

Nothing being inherent Buddhist look to an ever changing mind.

apart from that, the cosmology , the Karma concepts, and the gods are included in Buddhist thought.

atman has nothing to do with tathagatagarbha ...any correlation is nonsensical.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 11687
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 pm I stumbled across this YouTube video
...
I don't know Vedanta. I've only got a tenuous inkling of what the Buddha taught. That said, my intuition is that all of these descriptions, self, not-self, Buddha-nature, Tathagatagarbha, Ichinen-Sanzen, etc. these are instructions for orienting the gaze so that one can see for themselves. That said, depending on where you start from, the directions will be different. If you are East of the destination, then instructions would be, "Go West." If you are West of the destination, then instructions would be, "Go East." If you start to the East and travel West, but overshoot the destination, the instruction would then be, "Go East."

More fundamental than any of those directional instructions, though, is this: "Buddha-nature is." One needs to arouse faith in that teaching first before any instruction can be given about how to get there. Once there is faith in Buddha-nature, then there can be examination of its nature, of its location, its characteristics, etc.

I have comments about that video, but I will not go there as I don't want to take this down the path of comparative discussion.

In Tiantai, reality is described in terms of Three Thousand Realms in a Single Moment of Thought. It more or less is a way to explain that the moment of mind is the entirety of reality (in the all encompassing sense of "reality"). There is a description of progressive meditation practices in which each samadhi, once achieved, becomes an obstacle to be transcended. The antidote for the dhyana Neither Thought Nor No Thought is the Samadhi of Self. I was reminded of that when this fellow compared Vedanta and Buddhism.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4547
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:49 pm

don't think i can listen to this guy for 30 minutes.

in any case

the only real difference in modern hindus and Buddhist is the concept of Atman .

Atman describes an inherent transmigrating soul.

Nothing being inherent Buddhist look to an ever changing mind.

apart from that, the cosmology , the Karma concepts, and the gods are included in Buddhist thought.

atman has nothing to do with tathagatagarbha ...any correlation is nonsensical.
I can certainly appreciate not wanting to sit through this presentation.

The question I am raising is, in what way, specifically, are atman and Buddha-nature not simply two words for the same thing, since by this fellow’s understanding they both describe nothing other than a beginningless and endless awareness?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3571
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:49 pm

don't think i can listen to this guy for 30 minutes.

in any case

the only real difference in modern hindus and Buddhist is the concept of Atman .

Atman describes an inherent transmigrating soul.

Nothing being inherent Buddhist look to an ever changing mind.

apart from that, the cosmology , the Karma concepts, and the gods are included in Buddhist thought.

atman has nothing to do with tathagatagarbha ...any correlation is nonsensical.
I can certainly appreciate not wanting to sit through this presentation.

The question I am raising is, in what way, specifically, are atman and Buddha-nature not simply two words for the same thing, since by this fellow’s understanding they both describe nothing other than a beginningless and endless awareness?
Well one day rinpoche was addressing a hindu that came to His gompa from time to time. they were friends.

It was His saying that the only real difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is this concept of Atman.

Atman is like this created inherent soul ..Buddhist have nothing that compares to that.

You can draw lines and say they are the same but they are two entirely different views.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4547
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:08 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:49 pm

don't think i can listen to this guy for 30 minutes.

in any case

the only real difference in modern hindus and Buddhist is the concept of Atman .

Atman describes an inherent transmigrating soul.

Nothing being inherent Buddhist look to an ever changing mind.

apart from that, the cosmology , the Karma concepts, and the gods are included in Buddhist thought.

atman has nothing to do with tathagatagarbha ...any correlation is nonsensical.
I can certainly appreciate not wanting to sit through this presentation.

The question I am raising is, in what way, specifically, are atman and Buddha-nature not simply two words for the same thing, since by this fellow’s understanding they both describe nothing other than a beginningless and endless awareness?
Well one day rinpoche was addressing a hindu that came to His gompa from time to time. they were friends.

It was His saying that the only real difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is this concept of Atman.

Atman is like this created inherent soul ..Buddhist have nothing that compares to that.

You can draw lines and say they are the same but they are two entirely different views.

Again, the question is how are they different?
What specific attributes describe tathagatagharba that do not describe atman, and vice versa?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4547
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:08 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:36 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:49 pm

don't think i can listen to this guy for 30 minutes.

in any case

the only real difference in modern hindus and Buddhist is the concept of Atman .

Atman describes an inherent transmigrating soul.

Nothing being inherent Buddhist look to an ever changing mind.

apart from that, the cosmology , the Karma concepts, and the gods are included in Buddhist thought.

atman has nothing to do with tathagatagarbha ...any correlation is nonsensical.
I can certainly appreciate not wanting to sit through this presentation.

The question I am raising is, in what way, specifically, are atman and Buddha-nature not simply two words for the same thing, since by this fellow’s understanding they both describe nothing other than a beginningless and endless awareness?
Well one day rinpoche was addressing a hindu that came to His gompa from time to time. they were friends.

It was His saying that the only real difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is this concept of Atman.

Atman is like this created inherent soul ..Buddhist have nothing that compares to that.

You can draw lines and say they are the same but they are two entirely different views.

Again, the question is how are they different?
What specific attributes describe tathagatagharba that do not describe atman, and vice versa?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Post Reply

Return to “Nichiren”