Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.
Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
There are 10 types of miscreant beings that may be liberated, but this is not the place for discussing this.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
You are very welcome to liberate your own inner ennemies : selfishness, hatred, egotism...
They are the real enemies.
They are the real enemies.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
There are Rudra subjugation - elimination practices. Some are for enlightened purposes,pemachophel wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:33 pm There are 10 types of miscreant beings that may be liberated, but this is not the place for discussing this.
Others are to firmly cut malignant conditions that obscure and block the dharma and pervert the teachings. That’s the basic energy principle at play. Just as lama Chopel says, is not open for chit chat.
Qualified means just that.
Regards
*just add to OP, the question posed is a good and proper, so don’t feel like the replies are a dismal of wanting to understand the subject, it’s just dharma practitioners are in general, often a superstitious bunch and often won’t color outside the lines with information for a variety of reasons. Valid reasons I should add.
Hope that’s a reasonable reply?
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
You misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Does that include Garudas?Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Especially GarudasDanny wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:02 pmDoes that include Garudas?Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
''I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity...''Charlie123 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:57 pmYou misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
I didn't misread it but he may have phrased it oddly if he means 'conditions' or 'criteria' or 'uncommon preliminaries' etc.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
---Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:19 pm''I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity...''Charlie123 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:57 pmYou misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.
'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis
Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.
I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
I didn't misread it but he may have phrased it oddly if he means 'conditions' or 'criteria' or 'uncommon preliminaries' etc.
Last edited by Charlie123 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Mostly it means someone who shows signs of accomplishment of the yidam, and not defeating themselves by breaking commitments. So no one gonna talk about it. That’s basically it.
It’s pretty open and shut.
It’s pretty open and shut.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Either you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.
My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Ah, OK, I understand now.Seeker12 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pmEither you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.
My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
Yes, there are criteria, but that must come from the Lama who gives the guidance alongside teaching the ritual.
I don't know of anything public, but in general terms it must be that the harm being done by the spirit is so great as to warrant it.
Other measures should have been considered or tried and exhausted. Antidote practices and gentler methods like asking them nicely to desist, with some food and wine, maybe.
It must also be clear that the harm being done can be clearly attributed to that spirit, of course, and such a diagnosis is a specialised thing and performed by someone accepted as 'qualified' .
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
hitler should have being "stopped" in munich.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Your profile pic is quite yonic.Seeker12 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:10 pm I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.
Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
Not to mention, I heard our mutual teacher Lama Dawa Chodaak Rinpoche say once: “Before one engages in wrathful liberation, one should have accomplished the siddhi to bring beings back from the dead.”pemachophel wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
Yeah, I’d say that’s pretty powerful...
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
i agree, it is not so simple, but i brought hitler to the table as an example of an individual that might have quilified for the criteria.pemachophel wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
also, plans can be frustrated and that can prevent bigger problems. i think. and is much simpler.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
zhing bcu - ten defects or the ten objects are: 1) The enemy of the Three Jewels, 2) the enemy of the master, 3) The samaya violator, 4) the perverted one, 6. the hostile one, 7. The samaya enemy with a wicked character, 8. The one arriving to the congregation, 9. the harmer of everyone, 10. the three lower realms. The enemies and obstructers are one's own and other's ignorance. In the liberation offering the ignorance is liberated into awareness [ry]Seeker12 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pmEither you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.
My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity
The tantras prescribe a number of mantras and signs to look for.Seeker12 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:10 pm I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.
Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.