Greetings and Request for Guidance

Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am
LhakpaT wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:46 pm I always liked the analogy that it is like someone introducing you to another person. They say to you, "This is Bob." Now you know who Bob is. You may have passed by him a hundred times in the past but you could not recognise him because no one had pointed him out to you.

There is of course more to it than that as well but I found this analogy helpful.
Beautiful. And, of course, someone who knows Bob intimately is going to give the best introduction :)

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:04 pm that's cool, what's the essence of Shakyamunni Buddha according to theravada teachings?
Dukkha/dukkha-nirodha.

Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:37 pm If you are interested in the linage of lama wangdor i recommend Lama Lena. She is teaching online very often.
Yes, I've enjoyed some of Lama Lena's YouTube videos. I will try to catch her online. Regarding which lineage I'm interested in, where would I even begin to investigate the differences between Dzogchen lineages?

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:11 pm I would say that pointing out is the teacher introducing you to the nature of your mind. Sometimes it is done quite formally, with a full ceremony, and sometimes very informally. However, receiving pointing out instructions is not the same as having your nature of mind pointed out. So its not like you "get the pointing out instructions" and you win. Many, perhaps even most, don't get it right away and need to work with a teacher on an ongoing basis (often with additional practices) until they do get it, sometimes receiving many instructions. There are many, many ways to go wrong, because we are quite habituated to concepts and clinging.
Thank you. I've managed to attenuate conceptual elaboration and clinging quite well in my existing practice, but this is an investigation of Dzogchen and so I'm going to work on the hypothesis that this means nothing until a qualified teacher should tell me otherwise.

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:58 am Absolutely no ambiguity on that point. No teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen; reading about and discussing Dzogchen practice could actually be counterproductive because you are more likely to be engaging in mental fabrication.

Unless you’ve had at least a reading transmission of the Longchenpa text you shouldn’t really be reading it either. I mean, anyone can obtain any book and read it, but no genuine teacher would advise you to do that. This is one of the annoyances is the vajrayana - there are texts that I’ve wanted to read for years but can’t arrange the circumstances to get transmission of them. But those are the rules.
Thank you. Regarding this point: 'no teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen', I take it you are referring to the practice of Dzogchen, as opposed to saying, 'no teacher, no introduction, no primordial state'?

Sorry to hear of your annoyance! May the circumstances you desire come around swiftly.
I meant that if you are inspire by Wangdor Rimpoche Lama Lena is great. Not so much about distinct linages.

Its better if you dont watch recordinga of the dzogchen teachings by Lama Lena beforr getting DI. Just tune in love in the next teaching and follow along. If you have some doubts Pm me

There are many great active teachers like mingyur rimpoche, Tsoknyi Rimpoche. See what inspires you
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:28 am Reading about, talking about or trying to practice Dzogchen without introduction and instruction is like trying to get a sun tan at night, indoors, fully clothed.
Are you suggesting that it's impossible to recognise the primordial state without assistance?

Tata1 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:09 pm I wouldnt go so far. Most of us would be here if we hadnt read a book about dzogchen. There are several open to all

I would recommend The crystal and the way of light and the self perfect state both by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Thanks, I'm already a few chapters into the Crystal and the Way of Light. Delightful read so far :)

Tata1 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:14 pm I meant that if you are inspire by Wangdor Rimpoche Lama Lena is great. Not so much about distinct linages.

Its better if you dont watch recordinga of the dzogchen teachings by Lama Lena beforr getting DI. Just tune in love in the next teaching and follow along. If you have some doubts Pm me

There are many great active teachers like mingyur rimpoche, Tsoknyi Rimpoche. See what inspires you
Thanks again :) I intend to tune into Lama Lena's stream later today.
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PeterC
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by PeterC »

Tata1 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:09 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:28 am
cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am Thank you. Regarding this point: 'no teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen', I take it you are referring to the practice of Dzogchen, as opposed to saying, 'no teacher, no introduction, no primordial state'?
Reading about, talking about or trying to practice Dzogchen without introduction and instruction is like trying to get a sun tan at night, indoors, fully clothed.
I wouldnt go so far. Most of us would be here if we hadnt read a book about dzogchen. There are several open to all

I would recommend The crystal and the way of light and the self perfect state both by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Many things can create auspicious connections. But people should be strongly discouraged from trying to teach themselves.
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PeterC
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by PeterC »

cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:28 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:28 am Reading about, talking about or trying to practice Dzogchen without introduction and instruction is like trying to get a sun tan at night, indoors, fully clothed.
Are you suggesting that it's impossible to recognise the primordial state without assistance?
I’m not suggesting, that is the view of every Dzogchen master ever. The extremely rare ones who don’t have a human teacher have enlightened beings as teachers.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:04 pm that's cool, what's the essence of Shakyamunni Buddha according to theravada teachings?
Dukkha/dukkha-nirodha.
ime, that you should keep.

one is like a vase, you pour liquid inside and keep it intact. if you mix with another you screw it both.
fckw
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by fckw »

What is important to understand from a didactical (rather than ideological) perspective is the difference how both the therevada and dzogchen lineages are approaching teaching and learning.

The therevada approach is like a teacher who starts from the very scratch, introduces the basics, then builds upon them more and more until, after a long time, you get a more or less complete picture. In dzogchen the teacher initially (figuratively speaking) shows you a postcard of how everything works together. Then, with this in mind, you start working towards that. The teacher sometimes again shows you the high-level picture, which helps you along the way until you have mastered all the subjects along the way.

A different example is assembling a puzzle with many pieces. The therevada approach is you pick some random piece and try to find a suitable neighbour piece that you put together. Only after some time you start seeing what the overall picture is. The dzogchen approach is someone first shows you a foto of the whole target picture, then you start assembling the pieces together. You still have to do all the work. But every now and then someone shows you the whole picture again. That, without doubt, speeds up the process a lot.

To make things more complicated though: the practice and subjective meditative experiences are very different. Therefore, the advice not to mix the system holds true. You should decide to either practice one or the other, but not both at the same time. And even if you do, then don't mix up the view of one system with the view of the other system. They are not really compatible.
Malcolm
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Malcolm »

cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:28 pm
Are you suggesting that it's impossible to recognise the primordial state without assistance?
Yes. In fact, the reason we are in samsara now is that we did not recognize the primordial state, the ye gzhi, aka the primordial basis, to begin with. If we have not recognized it on our own yet, how are we going to recognize it now? Dzogchen tantras are univocal in asserting that one must rely in a guru, and without one, we cannot recognize our own basis independently. There is no such thing as a self-arising Dzogchen teacher, other than Garab Dorje, and he was an emanation of the Buddha.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Matt J
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Matt J »

What's your lineage?
cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:13 pm I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.
[/url]
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Matt J
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

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Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:42 pm What's your lineage?
cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:13 pm I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Danny
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Danny »

He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
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heart
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by heart »

Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
I think it is candice o'denver.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Danny
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Danny »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:33 pm
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
I think it is candice o'denver.

/magnus
Ok, yes I was googling around.
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Matt J
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Matt J »

His/her/their Theravada lineage.
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Danny
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Danny »

Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm His/her/their Theravada lineage.
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
Wangdor was legit, the rest of these people, I never heard of them. Seems these days there’s
A dzogchen master on every mountain top and every river bank sitting on a rock in every valley.
Guess that’s a good thing?

Dunno? :shrug:
Danny
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Danny »

Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:28 pm
Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm His/her/their Theravada lineage.
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
Wangdor was legit, the rest of these people, I never heard of them. Seems these days there’s
A dzogchen master on every mountain top and every river bank sitting on a rock in every valley.
Guess that’s a good thing?

Dunno? :shrug:
Reads like I’m being a jerk, but I hit the road a few years ago, and things have moved on, so I’m kinda playing catch up with the soap opera, binge watching.
Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:28 pm
Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm His/her/their Theravada lineage.
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:24 pm He mentioned the late Wangdor Rinpoche.
Wangdor was legit, the rest of these people, I never heard of them. Seems these days there’s
A dzogchen master on every mountain top and every river bank sitting on a rock in every valley.
Guess that’s a good thing?

Dunno? :shrug:
Who are "this people"?
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:56 pm
cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:04 pm that's cool, what's the essence of Shakyamunni Buddha according to theravada teachings?
Dukkha/dukkha-nirodha.
ime, that you should keep.

one is like a vase, you pour liquid inside and keep it intact. if you mix with another you screw it both.
I certainly value the presentation of Theravada that I've realised. Are you suggesting that exploring Dzogchen is a bad idea?

fckw wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:45 pm What is important to understand from a didactical (rather than ideological) perspective is the difference how both the therevada and dzogchen lineages are approaching teaching and learning.

The therevada approach is like a teacher who starts from the very scratch, introduces the basics, then builds upon them more and more until, after a long time, you get a more or less complete picture. In dzogchen the teacher initially (figuratively speaking) shows you a postcard of how everything works together. Then, with this in mind, you start working towards that. The teacher sometimes again shows you the high-level picture, which helps you along the way until you have mastered all the subjects along the way.

A different example is assembling a puzzle with many pieces. The therevada approach is you pick some random piece and try to find a suitable neighbour piece that you put together. Only after some time you start seeing what the overall picture is. The dzogchen approach is someone first shows you a foto of the whole target picture, then you start assembling the pieces together. You still have to do all the work. But every now and then someone shows you the whole picture again. That, without doubt, speeds up the process a lot.

To make things more complicated though: the practice and subjective meditative experiences are very different. Therefore, the advice not to mix the system holds true. You should decide to either practice one or the other, but not both at the same time. And even if you do, then don't mix up the view of one system with the view of the other system. They are not really compatible.
Thank you for this thoughtful submission. The question is whether or not Dzogchen practice leads to deeper realisation than Theravada does. Dzogchen itself seems to suggest that this is the case, for example when Longchenpa claims that it is "the pinnacle of spiritual approaches". It is also said in many places that Vajrayana contains both Theravada and Mahayana, and also that each turning of the dhamma wheel represents an improvement.

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:41 pm Yes. In fact, the reason we are in samsara now is that we did not recognize the primordial state, the ye gzhi, aka the primordial basis, to begin with. If we have not recognized it on our own yet, how are we going to recognize it now? Dzogchen tantras are univocal in asserting that one must rely in a guru, and without one, we cannot recognize our own basis independently. There is no such thing as a self-arising Dzogchen teacher, other than Garab Dorje, and he was an emanation of the Buddha.
Thank you for responding, Acarya. It appears that the obvious next step in my investigation is to receive direct introduction to rigpa. If anyone has any advice as to how to go about this I'm all ears. I attended livestreams with both Lama Surya Das and Lama Lena yesterday but there were no clearly announced pointing out instructions.

Matt J wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:42 pm What's your lineage?
Bhikkhu Buddhadasa.

heart wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:33 pm I think it is candice o'denver.

/magnus
It was an open meeting in Lama Candice's sangha that I attended, yes. To be clear, my only lineage is Theravada.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

cd347 wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:09 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:56 pm
cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am

Dukkha/dukkha-nirodha.
ime, that you should keep.

one is like a vase, you pour liquid inside and keep it intact. if you mix with another you screw it both.
I certainly value the presentation of Theravada that I've realised. Are you suggesting that exploring Dzogchen is a bad idea?

not at all. read literaly: if you mix the points of view you'll get confused asap.

you can practice shrvakayana while having dzogchen view, but you cannot practices dzogchen while upholding shrvakayana view. shrvaka view is contained in dzogchen view, so you can go that way. i just mention this so you don't waste time -years maybe- trying to hold things together and end up noticing this very important point.
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:03 pm not at all. read literaly: if you mix the points of view you'll get confused asap.

you can practice shrvakayana while having dzogchen view, but you cannot practices dzogchen while upholding shrvakayana view. shrvaka view is contained in dzogchen view, so you can go that way. i just mention this so you don't waste time -years maybe- trying to hold things together and end up noticing this very important point.
Thank you. This is precisely the kind of discourse that makes investigation of Dzogchen seem appropriate. There appears to be no clear path to direct introduction to rigpa from a teacher, however, which is clearly the next step. Many of the teacher websites listed in various threads here are posting webcasts for specific teachings, but none appear to be offering direct introduction explicitly. Is it just a case of turn up and chance that it'll happen?
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Okay, it appears that Lama Lena did indeed include direct introduction in her stream last night, confirmed by a student of hers.

I am already intimately familiar with that which was pointed out, and it has been the basis of my practice for some time. I've heard many pointings like what Lama Lena shared and examined my own experience thoroughly through these lenses. I am confident.

If, indeed, as many here say, introduction to Rigpa is impossible without interaction with a teacher, then this must mean that those trained by Lama Candice are skilled enough to transmit. I never wish to rule out the possibility of delusion, but my assessment is that this is highly unlikely and that further rumination as to whether rigpa is known would be in the category of doubt as a hindrance.

The question of whether or not further Dzogchen practice holds the potential of deeper realisation remains.
Last edited by cd347 on Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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